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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Apr 15, 2015 - 09:06am PT
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The secret of Ayurvedic flight revealed:
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jstan
climber
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Apr 15, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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Something I learned in budget discussions. Get angry, and no further attention will be paid
anything you claim. Saw it happen this way. Over and over.
The reptile brain gives little indication of learning.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2015 - 09:14am PT
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In the absence of data, stating an opinion
Yes, you guys are stating opinions that matter is all there is.
It's a proven fact that that matter is NOT all there is.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 15, 2015 - 09:26am PT
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How does "no physical extent" relate to this, John?
Randall Sundrum Model
Discuss with your car pool and report back.
Jstan, I apologize for not being clear. This little poke was directed at the other "John", namely Largo! His car pool involves the prodigies from Cal Tech that he cites frequently.
Your expertise on this thread is much appreciated!
;>)
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Apr 15, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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Ok, poem off topic, now posted on poetry thread.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 15, 2015 - 09:38am PT
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John
No problem. I took the comment as something I deserved. It is very important we all appreciate input. Not doing so is the worst flaw.
Destructive.
I learned this around 1970 from Richard Petrowitz. After putting up ribbons to see if trails could help preserve the mountain laurel, Richie tore me a new one. It took milliseconds to realize if you want to accomplish something with others no input may be disregarded.
Nothing is more important than the learning.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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I mentioned the fracus about "no physical extent" to a few science friends who John, who apparently distrusts other scientists, especially young ones, has referrered to as "prodigies," and one said, "Ask those duffers what the physical extent is of gauge bosons, photons and gluons." Or put differently, for the known phenomenon that have no physical mass, what is their physical extent?
John S. said that we need a cogent definition of sentience. My friends who approached the question in terms of programming an AI machine with same discovered that any definition would have to exclude tasking or computing or objective functioning as the basic nature of sentience, leaving them with no "thing" with which to program. Perhaps John has some other insights on he subject that could lead to a definition. Again, the default to objective functioning will not serve our definition since "the map is not the territory."
What does this really mean? It means that my daughter (petroengineer) has an incredibly detailed break down of a lightening bolt that struck an old rig she was working on in the Orinoco Belt down in Venezuela. The break down runs many pages and has an almost incomprehensible amount of detail per the objective physical aspects of the lightening bolt in question. But no matter how detailed and accurate the figures are, we will never get an electric shock by touching the map of forked lighening because said map is not forked lightening itself.
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45am PT
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Dingus, how about answering the question instead of working so hard to discredit our right to ask it? This is a recurring pattern on this thread - when something disrupts your take on reality, attack the verity of the messenger rather than address the issue.
Again, the question is:
". . . what the physical extent is of gauge bosons, photons and gluons." Or put differently, for the known phenomenon that have no physical mass, what is their physical extent?
Another way to look at this is:
When you shut up and stop calculating, what does your mind reduce to?
JL
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Apr 15, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
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I deal with quanta on a daily basis in medical imaging.
A photon, gluon and gauge bosun are quanta. They behave both as a particle and electromagnetic energy. They have a duality that can be measured as energy...no mass. They are massless particles, kind of like thoughts.
I can tell you when I don't have enough quanta that make it to my image receptor because it makes for an awful image.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 15, 2015 - 01:44pm PT
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Everything in the universe has a physical extent, how many times must I tell you?
You forget the space between the physical objects, it is just as real as the physical objects but has no physical extent.
Your argument is akin to saying that music is only made up of the notes, neglecting the pause between the notes that are just as essential to the music.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 15, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
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Why do you find boundaries and hesitate pulling out all the stops? You stay in bounds of what is conceptually and theoretically possible. Is that prudence? If so, then you might also be doing it so that you continue to have some legitimacy among a community that you may have significant differences with. It references a social bond and commitment to others.
What a paradox. The more honest and truthful any of us become, the more we alienate ourselves from others. What is more important: community or a fleeting sense of truth?
Alienation results not from proposing wild ideas. It comes from implying/asserting they are fact or that there is real but unspecified data supporting them. If something is wild but is interesting, you just say that's the way you find it.
I don't feel the need to express myself. On a few occasions I have managed to accomplish something with others. I have not found any other experience to be comparable.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 15, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
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You forget the space between the physical objects, it is just as real as the physical objects but has no physical extent.
I think Hendrik Casimir might take exception to that statement if he was still around...
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Apr 15, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
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However, if they (any of them) affect the physical realm (they do), then they have a physical extent, its that simple.
Most definitely. Just as space can't exist without the mass. Can't have one without the other. There's duality in everything that I have observed, especially humans.
Is the duality of quanta the transcendental state?
I'm not equipped to understand much in this universe with my feeble mind but it sure is fun f#ck around with thoughts, flesh and photons
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Apr 15, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
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Think about that for a minute...
Trust me...I have. With the understanding that the awful image may not look so awful to someone who doesn't know what they're looking at.
I showed a 6 year old a CT image of his cervical spine and he pointed out an image of a seal to me. Wow! That was pretty cool.
Edit: To stay on topic I'll say you can't teach a machine that. To me, that is sentience.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2015 - 03:00pm PT
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Dingus says: As with light, they have a physical extent, or they wouldn't behave as particles.
But Dingus, you haven't answered the question. Simply asserting that they have a physical extent is not the same as saying what that physical extent actually IS.
We are NOT asking you about the effect these phenomenon have on other particles or phenomenon, rather, what is the physical extent of the bosen, etc.
The answer, without question, is "they have no physical extent."
Here we find the very limit of materialism. When some phenomenon does not pan out as "stuff," then you default to it's effect on other stuff, anything to cling to the fiction that there is only one side of the coin.
And what's more, what does your mind resolve to when you shut up and stop calculating?
JL
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Apr 15, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
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Here we find the very limit of materialism.
Dum de dum de doodaleedoo.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 15, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
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To continue the music analogy
or, DMT is someone who can measure the world, but not see it.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 15, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
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The answer, without question, is "they have no physical extent." (JL)
Since the Planck length is so many orders of magnitude smaller than any current instrument could possibly measure, there is no way of examining it directly. According to the generalized uncertainty principle (a concept from speculative models of quantum gravity), the Planck length is, in principle, within a factor of 10, the shortest measurable length – and no theoretically known improvement in measurement instruments could change that. (Wiki)
Absolutely no physical extent or merely no measurable extent? This is about space or spacetime itself.
Massless particles are known to experience the same gravitational acceleration as other particles (which provides empirical evidence for the equivalence principle) because they do have relativistic mass, which is what acts as the gravity charge (Wiki)
So "no-thing" is non-measurable, occupies no space, and is oblivious to time? In other words it's absolutely nothing and has no kind of extent. Even a thought has a kind of extent, so when you engage no-thing in meditation you have moved beyond space and time and since thoughts are the product of consciousness, you are not conscious. And yet you can report back from this mysterious realm. Very impressive.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
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'no physical extent' hasn't a shred of science backing it
"Everything in the universe has a physical extent" is total bullsh!t.
It's completely unscientific and is a bonafide fact since day ONE.
You're whole western scientific system is based ultimately on pure mental speculation.
You haven't a shred of truth to stand on for your "Everything in the universe has a physical extent"
But the real truth is:
Life is nonphysical and nonchemical.
It is beyond matter and it is transcendental to the physical extent.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 15, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
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Since the Planck length is so many orders of magnitude smaller than any current instrument could possibly measure, there is no way of examining it directly. According to the generalized uncertainty principle (a concept from speculative models of quantum gravity), the Planck length is, in principle, within a factor of 10, the shortest measurable length – and no theoretically known improvement in measurement instruments could change that. (Wiki)
place holder
Something bothers me here but until I do some homework I have nothing to say.
The discussion below is getting a little animated but that's OK. I find it interesting, though I have no prior vested interest in any of the ideas. We will just have to wait and see how things work out.
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