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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:02am PT
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It should be "How come dogs can't read books".
Pretty asinine responses so far.
There's no life in this thread .....
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MH2
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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I checked as well as I could and didn't find anyone else who had answered Jaybro:
Is there any reason to treat creationism as anything more than superstious nonsense?
No.
Well, maybe.
After all it isn't the first question you consider when you see a goddess, or perhaps god.
To inveigle a woman, creationism would still be nonsense, but I wouldn't treat it that way.
and Ghost:
you seem to be on fairly intimate terms with the other two members of my trinity.
haha Rock and Bourbon?
edit
WBraun:
There's no life in this thread
Maybe not but all kidding aside I am grateful for what you have said here.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:35am PT
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Gobee-
There are both chimpanzees and gorillas who have been taught hundreds of words through sign language. There are chimps who can make simple sentences by arranging felt pieces on a board and chimps have been taught to use simple symbol-based keyboards connected to computers. Chimps have been documented as joking, lying, inventing vocabulary and teaching their offspring to sign. One even tried to teach a pet kitten to sign. The gorillas have matched what the chimps have done and outscore human children of up to 7 years old on tests of pairing opposites. One gorilla has made up simple rhymes. Since these gorillas are able to understand spoken English and hear rhymes spoken in English and then reply in sign language with words that rhyme when spoken, they are in fact bilingual in two different languages. I wonder how many of our Supertopians can claim that?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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GOclimb wrote:
“You're just defining bad people who love Jesus out of existence! You're claiming that if they are "real" Christians, that they couldn't possibly be bad people. That may help keep your numbers looking good, but can't you see how ridiculous it sounds?”
“See, here's the thing - some other religions don't work like this, but most Christian sects define a Christian as someone who has accepted Jesus as his/her personal savior. Period. You have NO right to claim that someone isn't a Christian when she says she is. NONE. It's antithetical to the very roots of your religion to do so.”
GOclimb—
My posts did not suggest defining anyone out of existence and I don’t believe this is an issue about “rights.” I don’t own the term “Christian”. I don’t believe I suggested such. Anyone can CALL themselves Christian or religious.
Are you ignoring the context of my first post? An individual made prior post claiming atheists committed less crime than the religious and lived more ethical lives. These studies that assert that claim, primarily on the basis of prison populations, have little validity.
Don’t you believe the definitions of “Christian” and “religious” are rather hazy, as are “atheist” and “agnostic”? Hazy subjects and indistinct characterizations don’t engender conclusive corollaries.
Do you want to define anyone who “loves Jesus” a Christian? Okay. Anyone who “accepts Christ as Lord and Savior”….another interpretation. Anyone who has a baptismal certificate? ….another definition. As you advised, there are many sects and many delineations of what signifies “believer” or “Christian.”
But in making a credible study we need confirmed and rigorously defined subjects. Conjoining the desperate with the committed and assured, whether they are believers or atheists, will not yield valid determinations about behavior.
You wouldn’t want yourself or other ethical atheists thrown in with Jeffrey Dahmer and 20th century atheist dictators, who committed mass murders, (in making a study of atheist behavior)? It wouldn’t be relevant; your logic, philosophy and agendas are different.
And any study that combines the devout and committed, who actually attempt to incorporate religious ethics in their lives, with casual or desperate individuals who use religion as a crutch or strictly for emotional comfort, will not accord germane conclusions. Ted Bundy was baptized Catholic in youth. Is there any confirmation he was ever devoted to Christian principles? After being apprehended, tried in court and sentenced to death, he claimed to be a “born again Christian.” Would you, as an atheist, gleefully categorize him in with committed Christians to bias a “study”? Some have.
Rights? Yes, GOclimb, any pseudo social scientist has “rights” to classify these desperate professors of faith as “Christian” to make an analysis, whether it be valid or not.
They also have right to throw nuts in their omelet.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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Dr. F.
You state that Lynn hears voices in her head from Jesus and you hear voices in your head that are just yours. As an outside observer, how am I to decide which voices are correct? You might claim that yours are backed with science and you help the world that way, Lynne claims hers are backed by Jesus and she helps the world by applying his principles. I say you both have valuable contributions to make to the world, but you specialize in different areas. One of you is not superior to the other, rather you are complimentary to each other. So why so adversarial?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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So just this morning I overheard a conversation between a wire hair pointer and a great wawa...
"So, if humans are so smart, how come they never evolved as far as butt sniffing?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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The Bible repeatedly says that man's greatest fault is his lack of humility (Tower of Babel and all that). The history of science meanwhile tells us that progress is never held back by what we don't know, but by inadequate models of what we are sure that we do know. Another way of putting it is that in science if you ask and ask the same question and can not find an answer then you are asking the wrong question and need to rephrase it to open your mind to a new paradigm. It seems to me that jstan opened the way for a new paradigm and everyone just ignored it in favor of shouting the same old questions and accusations at each other??
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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Hi Jan. The sun comes up in Okinawa as it sets here.
It seems to me that jstan opened the way for a new paradigm and everyone just ignored it in favor of shouting the same old questions and accusations at each other??
Hmmm. For many of us, the problem is that there are no real answers given to those same old questions, even when they're asked quietly and politely.
Q: "If something in the world is incompatable with your religious beliefs, why do you coninue to believe?"
A: "Because the bible says so, and the bible is the word of god!"
Q: "Why do you believe the bible is the word of god?"
A: "Because the bible says so!"
You can vary this slightly depending on what variety of religion is being preached, but it sums up the problem in a nutshell. Sometimes the shouting obscures it, but it's still a problem. As a very human being, I would like to believe that my death will not be final, that I will enjoy an eternal life with god. I have not closed my mind. I am willing to listen, and to accept any reasonable evidence that there is a god, or gods, and that by accepting it/them I will transcend death.
But no one has ever offered any reasonable evidence. Take a close look at any of it, and it falls into one of two categories:
a) "The bible says so!" or
b) "Science can't explain it, therefore god must be the answer."
Show me a religious belief system that isn't contradicted by what I bump into on the street every day (or by what some poor child being tortured by psychopathic killers endures) and I'll be more than happy to accept it, but Gobee's "The bible says so" and Lynne's "Jesus is my pal" don't really qualify. It might keep them functioning, but it's not really rational, is it?
Or have I somehow missed your point?
David
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Ghost
No it's not rational at all.
And those answers, I agree will do nothing for anyone except make one more suspicious.
That's why I stress one must make their own sincere search.
Just remember some will never make that journey in this life or the next.
Otherwise a Judge would never ever hand out 2 consecutive life sentences in prison. Not everything meets the eye in a systematic way that can be understood by just plain reason and simple logic.
Many will fail in their search many will give up. They will be reborn in their next life according to the consciousness one has developed in this life. This is pretty crude and basic example but is far and far more involved than can ever be expressed here.
Anyways ...
Don't be thinking about your dog in your last breath ......
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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"We begin:"
God is Holy, we could not stand in His...without the grace of Christ
And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
The Shining Face of Moses
When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand as he came down from the mountain, Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God. Aaron and all the people of Israel saw Moses, and behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him. But Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the leaders of the congregation returned to him, and Moses talked with them. Afterward all the people of Israel came near, and he commanded them all that the Lord had spoken with him in Mount Sinai. And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face.
Whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he would remove the veil, until he came out. And when he came out and told the people of Israel what he was commanded, the people of Israel would see the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face was shining. And Moses would put the veil over his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
And the Lord said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 13, 2009 - 02:04am PT
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I was just going to type about the idea of birth, death, and cycles that existed even before people recognized them. Someone spoke of the importance of recognizing the good in the systems we create. I had to laugh, when I saw that Gobee dropped another scripture bomb.
Werner, I liked your advice about a last breath... Walking it like you talk it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 13, 2009 - 05:38am PT
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Reading through Werner's last post, I'd like to note that the idea of reincarnation is attractive to me personally, because it gives us slow learners more than one chance and it places the blame for things where it belongs - on us. God, having set the laws of karma in motion, is left out of the mess made by humans on earth. Humans must accept responsibility for their situation both individually and collectively, and proceed from there. They can not blame God for their lack of success or happiness. Each person is responsible for their own choices, the sum of which is their karma.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 13, 2009 - 08:59am PT
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I like the idea of personal responsibility, and our situation being the result of our actions. Still, I remember something being typed about collective karma too. Groups share karma? Not that I believe in karma per say... Gotta go to work.
Good day all. Stay dry and remember, friends don't let friends climb slabs.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:33am PT
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What's wrong with taking full personal accountability during our lives without using imaginary scenarios from confusing old books to dress it all up?
We get one shot at life, we can do good or bad things, and our reputations and legacies reflect that for as long as our actions have effects and someone remembers what we did.
All the rest is optional.
Unless that's what you're into.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBUFV2c_vcU
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:48am PT
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I'd like to note that the idea of reincarnation is attractive to me personally
Me too! I'm like you, Jan - a slow learner. This life seems way too short. I'm over halfway through, and feel like I'm just starting to get the hang of a few things. And there's so much to learn! I'd love to believe I have more time than just this life. It's horrible to think that in the whole of eternity, past and future, all I get is these few years. So would I like more time? Is it attractive to think I could have that? Hell yeah!
Sadly, there are lots of things I'd like to believe which just ain't so.
IMO, religions tell us it's okay to hold onto certain fantasies. And, to be honest, for many people, that's probably for the best. Reality is harsh. It's also beautiful beyond measure, but in a way that's so big, it's almost crushing to the spirit. I think religion gives people a little space in which to operate that's outside the confines of harsh reality.
I need that space in my life too, but I choose good fiction, I choose community, I choose climbing, and above all those, I choose love. All these are constructs of my mind, and I cling to them with the same fanatical devotion with which Gobee clings to his savior.
Works for me.
GO
"And we are put on Earth a little space, that we may learn to bear the beams of love." W. Blake
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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If I might I would like to address Gobee's habit of dropping scripture bombs when faced with a problem to which he does not already have the answer. This is a very fundamental human trait that crosses all boundaries.
Suppose for a moment that I am an accomplished thermodynamicist. I really enjoyed those courses and I A'ced all the exams. Now I have a job and the problem in front of me is a problem in statistical mechanics.
Can you guess which branch of science I will try to employ? Over, and over, and over again?
The number and variety of quantum mechanical problems that have stubbornly resisted attack by classical people is beyond counting.
You even see people who enjoyed doing their thesis going out and getting a job, but who try to do their thesis over and over again on the job for the rest of their life.
And so it goes also with "spiritual" matters.
Humans are creatures of habit who really really like the expected.
We can worship the sun because it always does the expected.
And we have a lot of trouble in a random sometimes chaotic world. The unexpected is happening all of the time. Dammit!
When it is too much to take I go back to some really old book that I have had for a long time and I read the sentences I have read many times before.
They, at least, are on the page where I expected to find them.
We are creatures of habit living in a world that sometimes appears chaotic.
The answer?
Accept it. Work very hard to make the life you want and believe is right.
But never, never assume success is a given.
When failure comes, stand tall amidst the rubble
and know your ability to stand tall even in failure
is all the power you will ever need.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:20am PT
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Don't be thinking about your dog in your last breath ......
Oh, I dunno. There are probably worse things to come back as.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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Do you want to define anyone who “loves Jesus” a Christian? Okay. Anyone who “accepts Christ as Lord and Savior”….another interpretation. Anyone who has a baptismal certificate? ….another definition. As you advised, there are many sects and many delineations of what signifies “believer” or “Christian.”
The point is that from my reading of the New Testament and all of today's Christian faiths, the only "real" definition of a Christian is that the person claims to have accepted Jesus as their means to salvation. All the other "hazy" stuff you reference is simply designed by one sect of Christianity to exclude all the other sects. Like I said, that keeps all the people you define as "good" people in your group, and the ones you don't like out of it. But not only do I not accept that, I also think it's entirely hypocritical to your own most fundamental religious tenets.
You wouldn’t want yourself or other ethical atheists thrown in with Jeffrey Dahmer and 20th century atheist dictators, who committed mass murders, (in making a study of atheist behavior)? It wouldn’t be relevant; your logic, philosophy and agendas are different.
You don't read so well, do you? I said I have no problem sharing the mantle of atheist with people who do horrific things. My lack of a belief in god(s) doesn't define my agenda any more than it does Jeffrey Dahmer's. In fact, quite the opposite - it frees me to be the best person I can be, informed by but not shackled to philosophies designed for an earlier time.
That's the thing - I'm not tied to any religious sect. I think the reason religion is so fractured is that every time you see evil, in order to separate yourself from it and say "that's not what we believe - that's not who we are" you must break off into a new sect, to self-define out of existence that which you don't like. I don't have that problem.
So sure, if you want to do studies on all atheists, it makes perfect sense to me to include all of them, not just the ones I agree with! The latter seems totally ludicrous! It would be like a scientist saying "this data doesn't agree with my hypothesis, so I'm going to ignore it."
No, you should accept that there are true Christians who do terrible, terrible things. I'm sorry, but that's the truth.
Would you, as an atheist, gleefully categorize <Ted Bundy> in with committed Christians to bias a “study”? Some have.
If he claims to be Christian, of course! You would deny Jesus from him, deny his chance at salvation? What kind of a Christian does that make you?
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:24am PT
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JStan - nice post, and it's weird how we were writing very similar posts at the same time (see the post directly above yours).
GO
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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"If I might I would like to address Gobee's habit of dropping scripture bombs when faced with a problem to which he does not already have the answer"
Well they do answers the question, and they are answers that I believe that God gave us to answer those questions! I can't answer most of these questions on my own authority and couldn't have an answers on my own! But there are 66 different books that were written over 1600 years, which some of the writers didn't know what the others had written and it fits together, it was not a conspiracy, but the word of God! Every time I read it I get something new out of it, it's the living truth.
Also we will get to spend all eternity with God in heaven, it doesn't end here!
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