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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
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It's only an opinion that being gay is against God's law. I asked God, he said it wasn't against his law. Go ahead, ask the big Guy. So I say it isn't against God's law. In fact God pointed out to me that homosexuality exists in most animal populations in nature as a small percentage. It's part of the divine plan.
You just watch it Mister. God is going to smite California big time for recognizing 18,000 gay marriages.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jan 21, 2010 - 02:47pm PT
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"When you are ready to come out of the dark, you will."
You have obviously been blinded by the light. How much did/does it cost?
Someone please pass the donation dish!
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Binks
Social climber
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Jan 21, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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"that price has been paid, in full, 2,000 years ago" -this stance allows for enormous hypocrisy. I think it's false. You don't get a free pass by accepting Jesus. You have to earn it yourself.
The Bible is just a book. I've read it. When you go to a church you buy into an interpretation of this book. The people in charge of the Church organization tell you how to interpret the book and extrapolate what they think are the laws from this book. It's just their opinion, but many of them claim their view on the book, or some other member in their church's histories opinion is an indisputable fact and all others are wrong.
If the Bible tells us anything about God, it tells us that he changes his mind. The book is a collection of stories with endless contradictions and it implies that anything goes in some circumstances be it slavery, murder, having dozens of wives and concubines what have you. What is true for God in some parts of the book is no longer true later in other stories in the book.
The book isn't the word of God, it's a collection of stories people told each other about their history and relationship to God and religion. Many of the rules attributed to God in the book came from men and not God. Even the ones attributed directly to God, like the ten commandments are open to wide range of interpretation.
There's a story in the news about a gun sight maker who is being criticized for inscribing a code on the sights (these are for guns used by the NZ army) that reference biblical verses. Because apparently in their interpretation of the bible killing others is OK. Even though there is a commandment against it. It's their opinion that the bible justifies shooting people with guns, even though it says though shalt not kill. I do think it justifies both, therefore it is contradictory. Just one of endless examples like this.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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So nobody wants to join me for Sinner Stoning tomorrow?
You can even bring the kids and teach them wholesome Biblical values.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 21, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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Like "spare the rod and spoil the child"
In today's words: it's ok to beat the crap out of your children because
if you don't, they might like you too much.
No question God said that.
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REIGN 1
Trad climber
Mt. Woodson, Ca
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Jan 21, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
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What's interesting to me is the prop 8 ballaot was designed to win with a no vote. But it didn't.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 21, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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Plain and simple dirt, it goes against God's law.
IIRC, so do cheeseburgers.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jan 21, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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Thanks pc. I thought that post was kinda clever and funny.
Nice additions to it!
And BTW. Can we please stop tax exempting religious organizations!
Because that would be like a certain group getting special favors or something??
Hmmmm...I thought we weren't supposed to do that.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Jan 21, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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This guy reads the bible too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl_x3aVozuk
Just saying that reading the bible really doesn't mean much, its what you do with your information that counts, and you can screw it up.
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside
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Jan 22, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
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So Cragman, whatcha think?
Subj: Questions for Dr. Laura (substitute Cragman here)
Thou Shalt Sin No More
On her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet:
Dear Cragman
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan.
You know, I think we could collectively come up with enough money to buy Tami, I really want Question #1 answered please.
Question #8. I really prefer untrimmed hair on men, had no idea the Bible says it must be so. Can we get this fixed somehow?
I guess since I took jobs that required work on Sundays, I'm going to hell.
Oh well.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Jan 22, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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I am not going to wade through the many bs posts on this thread. But, I do want to place my vote.
Dirtbag, I am with you on this one. The religious can try to justify their lame (read "stupid") bible supported beliefs but their mythology based philosophy doesn't mean shite to me.
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pc
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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Nice one HJ.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
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I am curious as to how the modern christian responds to the points raised in HJ's post. I don't think I've ever seen a christian respond to those contradictions.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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The letter to Dr. Laura that Julia posted on this thread has appeared here on ST several times, and often appears elsewhere in similar discussions.
But throughout the time it's been circulating on the web, here and elsewhere, I've never seen any Christian step up to the plate and take a swing at answering the questions it raises.
And as to the gay marriage thing, well, I've made my thoughts about that known here before: However you as#@&%es excuse or defend your anti-gay feelings, you're still going come out looking the same way racists look today.
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Jan 23, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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Tami, please, if you have duel citizenship, run for an elected office. In the good old USA. We will form a coorperation, and give you our unlimited (prolly tax dectuctable) donations. We will all marry you, because your platform is multiple spouses are ok, and since the USA can't suck it up, we will all head north for some health care. Cheers, we thank you.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 23, 2010 - 01:15am PT
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I'm proud to live in a state where the People at large are consulted, through direct initiative, when a decision like this is to be taken.
Even when The Vote Of The People doesn't go my way, it's still the best way to settle things, and certainly better than any alternative.
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Jan 23, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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Right on, just pissed and spraying...
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2010 - 03:29am PT
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Even when The Vote Of The People doesn't go my way, it's still the best way to settle things, and certainly better than any alternative.
Sure, it's lots of fun, as long as it's not YOUR rights being decided by voter initiative. Segregationists and folks opposed to inter-racial marriage back in the day wish they had this option too.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 23, 2010 - 04:08am PT
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Hey there everybody. Just perusing this thread and wanted to place some context to a common issue. Somebody asked for a "modern Christian's response" to Jossjulia's pretty common thoughts on the old testament laws. That line of thinking seems to get used quite a bit around here.
When folks try to use this type of rationale to point to some sort of hypocricy or inconsistency it shows they really don't understand the breadth of the Bible in basic form.
Here's what it boils down to. Before Jesus was born, lived and died, one of the primary ways to honor God and be in relationship with Him was through obedience to His law.
Jesus Christ came to abolish the law and create a new way of relationship with God/Him that was based on Grace. His coming, as planned from the beginning, changed mankind's relationship with the One true unchanging God. It was a new way. The good news. The Gospel. Those that attempt to cling to the Law will miss the point. At the time, that Law was relevant, much of it no longer is. There is context and mystery in the Bible, even paradox but no contradiction.
I hope this helps. Bummer of a thread. Seems to be another Christians get misunderstood rant by a few climbers. Oh well. Discussion is good. Just wish I had a few more solid Christians around here to help me out when I'm away from the keyboard. Not real impressed with some of those who say they are on the Taco but don't really seem to behave in a way that reflects Christ. So it goes.....nothing new.
By the way, many of the most centered and devoted Christians I know don't support Prop 8.
Scott
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