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WBraun
climber
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One of the all time great threads discussing this controversial subject matter, a special thanks goes to all those who made it so. Thanks to Bob D' for keeping it on track.
And special thanks go to DR, Sean and wildone for your sober responses. DR you are a special person indeed.
Although I'm not to hot for rapping down something to rap bolt (just feels weird to me), just my own personal feelings.
I've actually supported and encouraged Ron Kauk when he first wanted to do this in Yosemite despite the rest of the gang hating him for that. I told him that of anyone to introduce rap bolting it would be him as he has the strength and soul to be able to thwart the oncoming tidal wave of everything that goes along with going against the grain in the last baston church of traditional climbing in Yosemite.
It was very painful for me to see friends hating each other over this for I truly loved them all.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Wonder how many folks actually read Robinson's article. It's an excellent read - first rate in my book.
JL
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Coz thinks 98% of the climbers on this Forum are down on
DR's and Sean's sh#t.
1) there are many climbers on this forum who have not touched
this thread
2) there are only a few climbers who have posted an opinion of
this climb and the style of its establishment
3) opinions may not be relevant
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I think everyone agrees that the best style is on-sight and ground up. This ideal frequently conflicts with common sense, which often calls for pre-inspection, top-rope rehearsal and pre-placement of gear and even rap-bolting. All of this has been accepted, if uneasily, in the valley for a long time.
It seems to me these guys made a considered decision that (i) the face does not need another x-rated route, (ii) the line would basically be impossible to find ground up and (iii) the resulting climb was of such high quality that it was worth the trouble of putting up and the hassle that the rap-bolting issue was sure to bring.
Those decisions were for the FA party to make. The only way to ensure a route is put up how you'd like it put up is to do it yourself.
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Mr.T
Big Wall climber
topanga
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one of my all time favorites....
"rap music, not rap bolting"
thanks to Bachar and NWA for keeping it real!
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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To everybody:
This has been compelling reading. I've learned lots.
Sure, I would prefer a ground-up route. But I'm not in
DR or Sean's class. And both have given honest accounts
about their route. I think, as a few people have said,
we should be civil about this. We don't necessarily have
to agree, but we all are one big family.
Thanks again for the thread. It's good.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Bravo! Sean.
Finding a higher use for your head than a parking spot for a brain bucket. Pehaps this will be your greatest contribution - a sea change in climbing - the Post-Elitist Era of Yosemite.
Visionary!
Perhaps the next step will be guidebooks that report only the authors of the highest quality routes, and leaves off the names of the FAs who put up the garbage. In fact, maybe the people putting up the bad routes will simply not report those routes out of a sense of honor (or embarassment).
When you leave only the route remains. It should be the finest route, not a testament to yourself.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Hey Fatty,
THIS is the media. Might be bigger than ink on paper; nobody really knows.
YOU'RE in the center ring of this circus.
How's YOUR EGO doing?
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Sean Jones
climber
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The last thing I want my child or any child do is grow up and suffer the same fate as some of our "heros" of the past.
There are many forms of climbing these days. Feeling ballsy, Jump on Southern Belle.
Want to climb the same wall without being as scared, Do growing up.
Want to go fast and do the same wall, french free through the cracks and and go fast.
It's as simple as that. If you don't like one climb, Climb the one you like. If you want to climb one of mine and wish it was scarier, climb it in bolder style.
I'm planning to do a new route with my new boyfriend this weekend. We're planning on soloing the whole thing wearing only g-strings and having a dance party on a big ledge in the middle. Photos and all. Anyone have a problem with that ? Or do I have to dress the way everyone else dresses and do everything the way everyone in the past did ?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Shameful.
What is the world coming to, when big walls can be rap bolted? To say that you did it to make the route "safe" is absurd. Why should climbs be safe?
I emphatically concur with ec, klaus and especially Haggis.
I don't care how much fun the route is to climb, or how safe it is, or why you guys climbed it. Rap bolting is lame, and rap bolting is cheating. Your route is not legit.
The best thing to do in situations like this is to back off, and leave the route for someone else who has greater skill and vision than you. They will eventually come along, and if the route continues to defeat others - for the next century or even for all time - then that's perfectly fine. But manufacturing a route by bolting it down to your own level - on toprope no less! - is wrong.
And lame.
Peter Zabrok
Whitby, Ontario
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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Hey Sean Im free this weekend can I go with you?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Yeah Sean,
Knickers and alpenstocks if you please. White shirt and tie. Tweed sports coat. (Dang, I said "sport." Hard to even lighten up without drifting into loaded language.) And soloing it in triconi nailed boots would be nice.
But whatever you and Boy-Toy do on that ledge, that's your business. We'll avert our eyes. (Oops, I did it again -- ramming my morals down everyone else's throat. Sorry...) I'll avert my eyes.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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There is a lot of straightforward jousting going on here, which, as I said previously, I find quite productive. Rather than seeking resolution, the discourse underscores the need for anybody paying attention to the argument, to consider very carefully their future plans in terms of bolting.
There are two main levels of concern being addressed here and there is a divergence between them as I see it.
The first is the application of tactics toward high-end climbing. Yes the risk takers engage stretches of rock in such a way that it excludes others. In contrast, the top-down climbers appealed to the notion that terrain dictates tactics. By this I mean, that there are clearly large stretches of rock which, given the current tools, tend to restrict ground-up climbing and can be well opened, and well-crafted routes observed as a result. So for me that is one of the better arguments for that tactic.
Certainly there is some overlap amongst the two groups in terms of the available terrain. The Bachar Yerian could just as easily have been either a sport route or trad route. Simple competition for resources is at play here, in terms of a particular form of expression and the subsequent permanent outcome.
Notwithstanding the complete ban of top-down routes in a place like Yosemite, either style enacted at the high end is likely going to produce a high-quality outcome in terms of the respective forms.
Although examples do get set by the elite, I don't think we should be too restrictive of the efforts of either elite camp. I say let them flourish, but in a critical way, in a way that regards the fitness of the terrain as a canvas to the appropriate style as best can be done. Doug and Sean have argued that they engaged that thought process and gave it their best shot.
The second level of concern tabled here by Healeyg and others is this concept of the risk-averse society latching onto the top-down tactic and engaging in a wholesale abuse of that in pursuit of an overall sanitization of the experience.
This is well underway. Look at the litigious nature of our culture, of American culture in particular: less and less personal responsibility, more stock put into external controls as a preference over personal responsibility and internal development.
Way back when sport climbing started, traditional climbing, if it had been upheld, would have likely served this ecological imperative of limiting bolts. The temptation to open routes by other means was too great and it has produced spectacular results; but I knew then that the masses would latch on to that and likely abuse it. So it goes.
As Joe Hedge said: "The train already left the station".
Hopefully, these vigilant dialogues will continue to nurture some critical thinking and result in the thoughtful application by the various camps, as they seek to express themselves and deploy their skill sets and tools as an imposition upon our natural resource.
Happy climbing,
Roy
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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I enjoyed reading Doug's article, nice perspective on the history of the wall. As someone who has done over 500+ first ascents, and drilled alot of bolts, I can appreciate the amount of effort that went into creating a great route. I think that most people here don't realize the amount of effort required to hand drill even a single 3/8 inch bolt in iron-hard Yosemite granite.
Like JL and others, I eyed that great wall when I was younger and thought "will it go free?" Thanks to Sean & Co. for producing a great line...I know how much work was involved. This route will no doubt see far more ascents than the neighboring lines on the great south face.
Doug writes: "We were also pretty sure that we didn't want to leave behind another death route. Enough of those on the wall already, and only getting worse. So it felt like an act of humility to go around and come in from above. Like we were sacrificing something of our personal FA experience for the sake of leaving behind the kind of route we wanted it to be. Something more accessible than everything on the wall so far had been."
What has been taken away is the first ascent of one of Yosemite's "last great" challenges. Believe me, it is far bolder, scarier, physically and mentally challenging, to go ground up. It requires greater technical expertise, more time, and more effort. Just because the route is done ground-up dosen't mean it has to be R or X either. But is it better? Once you go top down, you forgo the true first ascent and become a "route installer", and I think a great route was installed, with fewer holes, less damage to the rock, etc., but what has been "sacraficed" here has also been taken away from others- the spirit of the first ascent. Is it something worth preserving?
BG
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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simple fact in my mind:
the authors of the route in question are diluted folks. they were too afraid to dance at the threshold between gravity and friction. too scared.
from what i understood, doug robinson was a protagonist of pure climbing ethics, where the rock was sacred, and courage was the only acceptable gateway into this realm. not technology.
you two violated half dome. many people (whom probably looked up to doug) are outraged by the attack on such a jewel.
this role model let down much of the active climbing generation. hopefully, many people will stand up and revive the pure and bold climbing ethic that should reign, for the sake and preservation of the adventure.
hopefully, many people WILL NOT interpret mr. robinson's actions as acceptance of diluted courage, and apply the same cowardice on the sacred grounds that we climbers tread.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Bob wrote: What has been taken away is the first ascent of one of Yosemite's "last great" challenges. Believe me, it is far bolder, scarier, physically and mentally challenging, to go ground up. It requires greater technical expertise, more time, and more effort. Just because the route is done ground-up dosen't mean it has to be R or X either. But is it better? Once you go top down, you forgo the true first ascent and become a "route installer", and I think a great route was installed, with fewer holes, less damage to the rock, etc., but what has been "sacraficed" here has also been taken away from others- the spirit of the first ascent. Is it something worth preserving?
BG
It is a pretty good size wall than has a lot of room for more ground up routes.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Warbler said, "From the perspective of a grown up, and a father, who still climbs twice a week, I do believe Doug when he says they did the route for other climbers, and I think he should be respected for it. Of course they did it for their own reasons too - nobody but them knows exactly what those reasons are."
someone may build a trail for other climbers, but putting a route in? really? how gracious, maybe someone should start a company, Yosemite Route Setters, pay them to put up a route that you may want to do...
i dont have issues with the route, i just dont think the motivation of climbing for someone else rings true.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob: "Joe...I do get it. And have gotten it for a long time. My climbing isn't one dimensional like your is and in fact instead of being part of the problem I'm actually doing something. I helped establish a few climbing areas that have become some what popular. I worked with land owners and the BLM from the start and help create a relationship that help make these areas a model when speaking of climbers and land managers working together. I was the Colorado BLM state volunteer of year 1992 and quite proud of the work I have done."
Bob: " I admire that much more as I have through my whole climbing career been with the same woman and together we raise three wonderful children"
Well Bob, it's not like you're not the only one who works with land managers - a lot of us do. I've also established active on-going relationships with the many agencies of record for our crag and also help the Dept. of Wildlife do the Peregrine monitoring (where I'm headed this afternoon). And over three years I have personally invested about $5k in replacing all the fix anchors and pins on that same crag. And for that matter I too have a great wife and a lovely daughter who is heading off to college this year. But, I personally [and naively] like to think that kind of service to climbing and dedication to family would be the norm. But either way, they really don't have much bearing on these issues.
Bob: "You posted in another thread that If i was up to you ALL BOLTS would be removed. You my friend are an extremist on this matter and such ....can't argue in a rational way. Beware the Future...it is here and your stagnant way of thinking does nothing to help...only divide.
What I actually said, was that if I had my way I'd pull all the bolts from a single crag which lies in the heart and shadow of where sport climbing started in the US. PDX is sport heaven and there are many, many sport venues both locally and at Smith for folks to clip bolts at. Beacon Rock on the otherhand, has had a solid trad history from day one with early bold lines put up by guys like Dean Caldwell and Kim Schmitz who regularly climbed there.
My efforts are focused on keeping this one, lone classic trad crag from being overrun by a local 'tyranny of [bolted] democracy' which is solidly sport. Is that 'standing in the way of progress'? I hope so - in the same way that Eldo is now being protected (but no doubt you could think of no shortage of great rap-drilled lines there if you weren't being unfairly prevented from developing there).
I'm admittedly an extremist, but my arguments are no less rational than yours. My purpose it not to divide, but rather to raise a cogent warning lest that train tar has observed having left the station ends in a complete wreck as opposed to arriving with the least amount of damage possible.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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[Unbelievable what the I-net has done here.]
I want to say thanks to all who've posted up here: DR & Sean for stepping into a shooting range with targets on their backs, and the rest (too many to name) who have taken the time to scribe their thoughts in a way that has really made me think. This is deep and rich. I keep reading, and I keep scratching my head...
I want to respond to just about every post I read, but [perhaps thankfully] I have not much more to add, except what I've said just above.
Good climbing to you all!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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DR: "So the answer to your question is, nobody needed to rap bolt to put up mouth-watering routes next to the Snake Dike."
Doug, it was strictly a logic exercise from the perspective of risk and means - though of course a via ferrata versus another climb on the same terrain would certainly be less abstract. My only real comment to the above would be the word 'needed'. Yes, the climbers who established those other routes didn't 'need' to do them top down because they happened to hold a ground up ethic. But 'need' gets somewhat redefined when someone doesn't share that ethic. Add to that the quite logical argument that rap-bolting is absolutely the best way to insure the lowest impact and the highest quality result and you have to wonder why anyone ever felt the 'need' to go ground up.
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