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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 12, 2017 - 07:10pm PT
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Hey, Bob! Attribution! I'm hurt!
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 12, 2017 - 07:36pm PT
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Hi, Mark.
August West: . . . smoking causes cancer, . . . .
Heard of HPV?
Good post, Lynne.
Bob: Funny that science can explain what Werner and others can't.
Horse pucky. Not 100%. It’s always lacking. Find one study that explains 100% of the variance.
Why is there variance?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 12, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
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MikeL, Have I heard of HPV? What kind of question is that? have you heard of the sun?
By the way, nice work on bringing ouroboros into a recent post. I love that!
Variance. Tolerance. Distribution. The universe isn't completely predictable. Isn't that fun?
How cool it is that our view at the macro level of phenomena is just the average distribution of "random" phenomena at the micro level.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 12, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
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Mark,
The HPV comment was not to you, but it's nice that you commented anyway.
Jim,
I had HPV and never knew. And got cancer. And smoked for 35 years.
And loved every minute of it.
Who knows what "the cause" is / was?
Whatever, . . . . it showed consciousness, what seemed to be mine.
But talk to my wife. :-) She'd probably say that I exhibited no consciousness whatsoever. I was dead to her. (And she surely wasn't at all happy about that!)
Be well.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2017 - 09:09pm PT
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LOL Mike .....
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 12, 2017 - 09:16pm PT
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Ha-ha-ha-ha.
(To the both of you.)
:-D
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Super Sleuth
Ice climber
New York City, NY
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Jun 12, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
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I used to follow the bible loosely at best. For moments when I was a child I wished that it was true: That I had a life that required attention from an all knowing, all seeing god that could intervene if I believe enough, or prey enough, or preyed hard enough, or said the right words in the prayer that I would somehow get some help.
I have always believed the help never came in a language I understood, or could comprehend or could ever believe was ever real or meaningful in my life.
I have always asked myself "What do you believe?" and, just as importantly, "Why do I believe that?"
Any time I would blurt out a cliché "reason" I would sit and think and eventually ask myself another question: "Is that true? Or "What evidence can I find to support that part of that belief?"
Eventually reviewed the bible by way of attempts to read from cover to cover (never made it - Thank God For Dyslexia). Found it more useful when used like a preacher uses it: specific passages to elicit specific responses in specific people.
This led me to find a passage that kept everyone out of my discussion group on god: Matthew 6:5-6 New International Version (NIV)
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
The passage I read as a kid, or teen said something about keeping it between a lord and myself, and it had nothing to do with anyone else.
But I was recently pointed to another quick blurb that opens doors for me at times: Romans 3:3-4King James Version (KJV)
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
So, now I get to ask a judge, when swearing to tell the truth on the bible, I tell him "God is the truth, but I am a liar, Judge, God's Word's, not mine!"
Am I shown an honest man if I admit to you that I am a liar?
Whether you believe me to have a God or not, I ask you to ask yourself these questions as well
Never Settle
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jun 12, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
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Nice!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 12, 2017 - 10:34pm PT
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MikeL, Be well.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:46am PT
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Mark and Mike
What's your belief of an after life?
I think a belief/hope in an after life is one of the biggest proponents in maintaining a belief in a high power.
That's my story, I had a belief in a higher power for ~30 years, but after I couldn't justify the existence of an after life in my mind, the reason for a higher power that provided purpose slipped away.
And I then became a natural being, like the rest of natural world; live eat, be happy die, just like every other living thing.
There is no purpose or higher spiritual goal.
The best you can do is live in the here and now, and abide by the Golden Rule.
My opinion open for debate.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:49am PT
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There is a difference between belief and fact.
All you ever do Fry is give clueless beliefs.
Fact, the living entity is eternal and not the material body ......
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 08:57am PT
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MikeL. said there are no facts
so you will have to take that line of debate up with him
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:25am PT
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Fact, the living entity is eternal and not the material body ......
I have to 2nd this and say that this is where religion gets real.
As a young man I chased up a number of religions as a matter of interest starting with the oh so boring Sunday School. One thing lead to another and I was chasing up various metaphysics oracles speaking long and often about the imortality of the concious human soul.
We'll I eventually found the stuff I was looking for and opened up the long term memory banks. Vast amounts of past-life stuff came out. I'm not talking about fortune telling. I'm using an electronic devise that registers when you see fact and finding it for myself, not someone else telling me how it is.
Well after many hundreds of hours of unfolding the tangled past of my existance, past life stuff is just boring old hack. Lots of lessons learned and freedom from "lessons learned."
The cool thing about knowing for sure that you live forever, as a being, is the future. You think long term. Also, the idea that life long.
Life is long and then you die, then your are born again for a long life and it goes on and on and on. So if that seem tedious, it is, so fix what you need to so that the now is always good.
Oh, and if you don't remember sh#t yourself, that is normal. Most people wouldn't want to rememer the life they are in now. It's just a mild case of abnesia that is easy to fix with the help of someone who knows what they are doing.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:29am PT
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There is the now that is all you have.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:33am PT
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Werner is like a snake oil salesman.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 09:37am PT
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The cool thing about knowing for sure that you live forever, as a being, is the future. You think long term. Also, the idea that life long.
Life is long and then you die, then your are born again for a long life and it goes on and on and on. How do you know?
I came to exact opposite conclusion after doing my search.
What evidence is there that your soul/some part of you lives on?
Born again where?
on and on, why?
how long?
are there rules in heaven?
or do you come back to earth as another human to process some karma?
see how this works, none of these questions can be answered, it's pure speculation
Yet I can answer the same questions, "none of this after life stuff exists, period"
answered to my satisfaction.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 14, 2017 - 10:14am PT
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Let’s take Roman and Greek deities nobody believes are real: Aphrodite/Venus, Ares/Mars, Dionysus/ Bacchus, Athena, Apollo.
These are anthropomorphic manifestations of psychological states that are helpful as metaphors in understanding love and beauty, anger, emotion, reason.
They were helpful for centuries in securing an understanding and a resolution to the angst of the human condition.
If you’re having trouble being reasonable offer a sacrifice to Athena and in the process perhaps you’ll come to your senses.
The tradition of ritual and sacrifice and self-examination through these deities helped people pure and simple. And in the broadest sense that’s why religion is generally helpful.
In these deities is a truth that so many on this thread, particularly those lost in the absolutes of science simply can’t comprehend.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 14, 2017 - 11:38am PT
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Human sacrifice to the deities was a wonderful thing back in the day
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 14, 2017 - 01:53pm PT
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It's a sloppy argument to claim the fallibility of all religions on a small, archaic and unfortunate practice. Read the account of Abraham and Isaac in the old testament or the story of Iphigenia in Greek myth to understand the elimination of human sacrifice in those two worlds.
I would never claim the fallibility of science based on Dr. Mengele or the notion that bumps on your head are an indication of your character, or the development of nerve gas and missiles and atomic weaponry, and germ warfare and...
Yet I can answer the same questions, "none of this after life stuff exists, period"
answered to my satisfaction.
Who cares about life after death, what about how we live our lives presently and how we reconcile ourselves to the tragedies, both little and big, inevitable in every life?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 14, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
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I'm questioning the existence of God
not the importance of myths and literature
you carry on with your debate, and I will carry on with my debate on God and the after life
The things you say are important have no importance to my life or the way I lead it
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