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c wilmot
climber
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The poor can barely afford a car let alone an efficient one. And in states like ca where they have smog tests the poor are being forced off the road altogether- or they buy a car that's pre 75 or a diesal pre 97 which are exempt (a rule passed so the rich's vintage cars are still street legal) and higher gas taxes DO hurt the poor- who are commuting farther to their workplaces. Meanwhile the rich driving teslas get free charging stations that are heavily subsidized by the taxpayer.
It's all talk about change when in reality the people polluting the most won't be affected by any carbon tax.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Doing nothing is not an option as the changes that are predicted by our best scientific models have the temperatures rising into a range for which our current world is not adapted to, and so quickly that it is difficult to know if it can adapt, it's all uncharted territory in Earth history.
If I was in the long term insurance industry (say 30+ year horizon) I would bet on the Doing Nothing option. Or rather, doing a little bit around the edges, like some solar and wind, but not enough to fundamentally change the process.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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I reckon that the financialisation of the economy has more to do with the lack of climate change action, than any restraint being placed by climate change denying mutterers.
I've been saying this for years. I've been cursed, at length and repeatedly, here on the Taco, for saying it. That's turned me at times into a ClimateF*#kYouer.
Those aren't mutually exclusive. I think the deniers have had a huge, negative effect. But I do with more could have been done (and locked in) before the Great Recession, back in the good old days when much of the world population was happy with their financial position (even if some of it was just a bubble).
From an emotional perspective, I understand why shaky finances and debt make action a harder political sell.
But I disagree that it really changes the underlying economics. Every single [financial] debt is somebody else's asset. Debt and savings equal out. Worker productivity goes up year after year. Some years quicker than others. But it is, for instance, substantially higher than the 90's.
The real issue is that the 1% (and 0.1%) are capturing most of the gains combined with the fact that more and more of the population (including professional desk type jobs) face insecurity with their employment.
So I don't buy the argument that we can't afford to tackle climate change. There is plenty of money and worker productivity to do it. And many types of changes will create losers and winners but it doesn't "cost" the economy. For instance, building $30,000 electric vehicles instead of $30,000 gas guzzlers.
But on the political front, I don't have any optimism.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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It increasingly appears that all the reasonable proposals discussed above will be rendered even more meaningless, as it is being reported that Trump is going to appoint Okla. AG Scott Pruitt--a major climate change denier as head of EPA--a clear case of giving the fox control of the chicken coop.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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What if there were some wearable applications that automatically informed the wearer of their current carbon use -- cumulatively over a day or week or month or year? I'm thinking of how a Prius driver can make small adjustments to maximize fuel economy because the immediate feedback information is there.
Maybe the wearer could see how their carbon use compared to their neighbors or family. Public utilities have started publishing this kind of information to encourage good behavior. Nothing like feeling a little ashamed to curb your behavior. It's technology that got us here. Let's use technology to remedy it.
Edit: About the horse farts -- my other idea is beano for cows and horses.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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DMT, you often refer to the cost of responding to climate change as if there were no costs to not responding to it. There are a lot of unknowns, but you have to do your best to compare the cost of doing nothing to the cost of doing something with respect to what you can actually achieve. If there were nothing else but the displacement costs of people currently living on the low-lying coasts to contend with, I'm sure that we must be talking tens of trillions in insurance outlays alone.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Insulting us to conformity?
Whatever.
As I've said before, I am not optimistic.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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And right you are Eeyonkee. Lack of optimism for your brand of pessimism is what will save our species, the earth, and the creatures upon it.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Pollution tax on ALL goods and services sold in the U.S. with the % of tax based on total pollution contribution and functioning like a VAT. Obviously this PAT (pollution added tax) would apply to ALL goods and services, including imports.
The greater the pollution to create and get the goods to market, the higher the tax. In this fashion, good ole China, India, Botswanna and any other country, can edit their infrastructure on their own timelines, just like us ;)
DMT
"Pollution Tax"? OMFG, I'm glad you're just a tiny voice on a tiny website and not working in the legislature.
Thinking for a moment that these "pollution taxes" would be used efficiently by our government is naive at best.
Punishing third world countries hurts too many people for me to ever want to be a part of such a thing.
Hand wringing over the effects of climate change is definitively a first world problem.
Losing sleep over this issue is for those that get to sleep in.
So, it all works out.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Hey Rick, I'm just being honest. Before I joined Supertopo, I was much more optimistic. I thought the easy proliferation of good science made possible by the internet and it's applications would win the day. Turns out, I was very naïve.
Also, I'm both a geologist and a software developer and modeler. Think of how the Titanic could not pull out of it's death path in time to save itself. As a modeler, I know the numbers matter a lot. With the kind of software that I write, we do sensitivity analyses routinely on variables used in our models. Some variables have small effects, some large. Often it is the combination that matters.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Eeyonkee ,I too share your pessimistic view and I have a geology degree as well.
I was attending school recently to achieve an environmental engineering degree,but since the spoiled brat from Queens has taken over , I will just ride out my existence .
Doing what I can ,living,otg,burning biodiesel,landfill free,zero approach biking and skiing and shopping local .
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Seems like we are a step closer to an "unlimited" supply of energy.
We already have an unlimited supply of energy. It's a fusion reactor called the Sun :-)
Curt
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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If the monies committed to the impossibility of a parity substitution of the current grid compatible mix of hydro, fossil fuels, and nuclear with hideous bird choppers and PV were instead diverted to nuclear, both latest generation fission and fusion research, undecided persons might just believe in the global warming hype. Just a thought.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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The latest reactors, in design stage, can be mass produced at half the cost, produce a tiny fraction of the waste needing long term storage, and are virtually fail safe Moose. As far as storage goes; with the departure of that crooked old obstructionist dirty Harry Reid and the muting of other rabid faux enviros we will have storage facilities like the multi tens of billions of dollars Yucca Mountain available as well as other already operating facilities like WHIP outside Carlsbad New Mexico, etc, etc.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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rick... i hear insurance companies won't insure nuclear reactors...
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Well, Donald Trump doesn't seem concerned about it either. He's nominated James Pruitt, who has sued the EPA several times in capacity as Attorney General the state of Oklahoma, as head of the EPA. Apparently, our next president doesn't understand what the acronym "EPA" stands for.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Malemute...It's incredible how many right leaning people repeat this fabricated think tank mis-information - propoganda verbatem , over and over while thinking that it is scientific truth...And if you mention Koch brothers they have a melt down and go into victim mode by accusing you of being hateful...These people honestly think the Kochs are their best friends and that climate science is the ISIS...Talking about fearful , brow beaten pansys...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Now they're making the ice caps melt.
How far are those climate-change hoaxers gonna go???
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nuclear energy is a fantastic option. Except for that one nagging problem--radiation. It's a more slippery bastard than oil is, always wanting to get out and spill.
Also, if you use nukes to desal water, make sure the energy plants are submersible.
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