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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 16, 2016 - 09:50pm PT
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CragMan, your comments are appropriate for most situations I have seen. Often, the security people are middle-aged guys, with little military training and background. This shooter was an excellent marksman with very good gun skills. Someone really good and experienced with the right gun could have bested this killer, but such people are not growing on trees. I have seen paunchy guys at the Mall, and it seems that they would be easy to tackle and disarm.
Guns were much less powerful back when the 2nd Amendment was written. If some guy with an AR-15 had come into the Congress in 1776 and blown away 50 of the Founding Fathers, possibly the remaining survivors would have written the Amendment differently.
Back then, guns were a vital necessity in the frontier States, but not in NYC and Boston. I am all for gun ownership in rural areas, but our cities would be much better off with far fewer guns.
I have nothing against Muslims, but Christians are the most persecuted group in the Middle East. We let in about 2,000 Muslims from Syria last month, and only 8 Christians.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jun 16, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
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Jody I did read the article you linked.
That why I posted my counter link in the next post.
Did you bother to look at that? A Christian pastor applauding the massacre.
These are very complex issues with deeply held beliefs on each side.
I'm not stupid simply because I don't look through the same lens as you do.
To me, there are no easy answers.
Susan
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 16, 2016 - 10:14pm PT
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Jody, there are a lot of closeted Neville Chamberlain fans here.
BTW, how's that Arab Spring thing going? Yeah, I know, it's all our fault.
Quite coincidentally the night before Orlando I went to see the play
"Disgraced" by Ayad Akhtar. Guess what, he calls BS on Islam and the Koran!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jun 16, 2016 - 10:17pm PT
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I read that article you posted Jody...No simple answers...You can't kill every Islamic terrorist and you can't take away everyone's weapons...Just stay home if you wanna make it to your eighties...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 10:21pm PT
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Only on a left-wing site like this, when an Islamic nutcase murders a bunch of people, does the discussion morph into an anti-NRA, pro-gun control, anti-Second Amendment discussion. Unbelievable! Completely ignoring the real reason this tragedy happened.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 16, 2016 - 10:35pm PT
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Jody I did read the article you linked.
That why I posted my counter link in the next post.
Did you bother to look at that? A Christian pastor applauding the massacre.
Susan, Jody is averse to answer anything that challenges his beliefs.
At least he never has on ST.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jun 16, 2016 - 11:38pm PT
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Jody: the article you posted is so full of exaggeration and straw men that i don't know where exactly to start...
i will say that unlike mccain outright blaming obama i haven't heard anybody outright blame christians for this orlando attack [as the article claims].
but if they did, it would be as ridiculous as blaming the muslim religion as a whole for the act of one nut bar who was acting in a fashion, that at this point appears to be, independent from any isis [or even muslim] leadership's orders/training/organization...
sure both religions, christianity and islam, have holy books that either say that homosexuals should be murdered ["If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death." lev 20:13] or at least punished ["If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone" quran 4:16]
but at the end of the day both books have a spectrum of interpreters/interpretations and so while there are only a couple "christian" countries that are currently flirting with murdering homosexuals [in africa] [at the same time that there are ten "muslim" countries which consider homosexuality an act deserving of death] still the historical leadership of both religions have, as a whole, made it emotionally and psychologically oppressive for lgbtq people to survive and thrive for thousands of years... even when they weren't outright killing or incarcerating them.
the point: no one, that i'm aware of, blames christians for causing this particular situation... and it would of course be ridiculous if they did... still, in a situation like this, if you can't understand why the conversation doesn't turn, in part, to some of the current [and admittedly non-murder based] oppression that occurs on this continent and which is mostly driven by individuals claiming to be christian, [at the same time that it rightfully so, also focuses on the potential "radical islam", "violent extremist" or whatever the nom du jour roots that this particular instance might be grounded in] then it's probably only because you haven't spent a lot of time in the company of queer people.
all the best.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 17, 2016 - 02:27am PT
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P.S. David French is an able and capable spokesperson for the recent radical-right 'christians as victims' meme. In his world, like in the allied creationist one, all conversations start with a foundational premise in mind and wind out from there. All events and 'facts' have to fit, or be capable of being twisted to fit, that point-of-view or be rejected out of hand. And he scrutinizes every world event for a slight against or injury to christians; his is a warped lens through which reality is flexible to the needs of his political and religious agendas.
He's basically a turbo-charged version of the folks who decided Starbucks' plain red holiday cup was a cruise missile of persecution specifically targeting christians. And, to be honest, it's both tiring and painful to watch christians play the victim card after a millennia of oppression, shame and guilt. Honest historians weep.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 17, 2016 - 06:06am PT
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This shooter was an excellent marksman with very good gun skills.
It's statements like this that really show ignorance. It also, in my case at least, means that I have no interest in someone so ignorant having a seat at the table when the subject of my rights being taken away comes up.
Skilled? If it weren't for the circumstances, that statement is so stupid and uninformed that it would be funny.
Thankfully, skilled and completely mental don't go together often but I assure you, if it did it would look a LOT different.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 17, 2016 - 06:43am PT
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It looks like this. Because skilled mental people don't use a gun, its by far the worst tool for mass murder available to them.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 17, 2016 - 06:47am PT
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Esco seems to be saying we should be thankful unskilled killers can only fire 4 rounds a second.
Or maybe he's saying it takes skill to build and deploy a bomb effectively? I'd agree with him if that's the case. Thanks, Esco.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 17, 2016 - 06:55am PT
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I'm saying that we should be thankful this person didn't have the sense to bring a couple gallons of gasoline and a screw gun.
But by all means focus on the guns, they're to blame.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 17, 2016 - 06:56am PT
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Rapid fire assault style guns seem to be the weapon of choice, Esco.
Why don't we apply some tougher restrictions on these first and see how they work?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 17, 2016 - 07:22am PT
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How about 'Islamic extremism' instead of 'radical Islam' as the preferred term?
in addition to 'jihadism' and 'Islamism'.
Going deeper (as part of study/research) in any subject leads to greater nuance and distinction regarding concepts and thus greater need for additional nomenclature to articulate it. Tell me this ain't so. Whether it's climbing or mathematics or science (eg, re "freewill") or electronics or any subject matter.
I've been tracking this for a long time now. Months ago CNN started using 'Islamist' and 'Islamism' in its pieces to more accurately and clearly draw a distinction with (general) Islam and Muslim. Kudos to CNN.
...
119 F in Phoenix today, yowza! Nature stay cool. :)
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jun 17, 2016 - 07:33am PT
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Jody, there are a lot of closeted Neville Chamberlain fans here.
Are you saying the conservatives here are gay? NTTAWWT.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2016 - 07:37am PT
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They may very well be gay but with Trump leading the charge they certainly can't be happy.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 17, 2016 - 07:52am PT
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Why don't we apply some tougher restrictions on these first and see how they work?
We have, it didn't. How about we try and go the other direction and see how it works?
Or better yet, focus on the actual problem, not some inanimate object?
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 17, 2016 - 07:55am PT
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We tried?
Were there lots of gasoline mass killing when we tried?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2016 - 07:57am PT
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Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Jun 16, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
Jody I did read the article you linked.
That why I posted my counter link in the next post.
Did you bother to look at that? A Christian pastor applauding the massacre.
I did. It's a BS story. Verity Baptist Church has been around almost 6 years. Yet, it's still renting (or getting a free ride) in a 500 sf space in a business park. Relatively speaking, it's an inconsequential church.
The pastor of this speck of a church gets 3 minutes of airtime on the local ABC news.
Overblown non-story.
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