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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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BTW, the anti-atheist amendments have not been enforced since the early 20th century. Atheists are, in practice, as free as anyone else to hold office in all 50 states.
Now getting elected...that can vary.
Will someone please fill me in on what the Atheist Agenda is? I wasn't aware we were all meeting and planning stuff and stuff.
I hate to feel left out.
Blue, howz your little girlz piloting skills coming? I have a suggestion for an slightly more expensive but much more controllable next phase vehicle.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Base said something,
BB said something about Science existing forever in the past.
No. Not really. Science is at its most basic point merely a method for knowing or not knowing. Theory and observation or observation leading to theory.
Science, in the recorded human record, really started with the Greeks. It puttered along until it exploded a couple of hundred years or more ago.
Science is a human activity. It doesn't exist without humans, or some other intelligent and curious agent to perform it, because, as I said, it is a method whose purpose is getting closer and closer to the truth about nature. Nothing more.
Don't you give your Mother-Nature more credit than that? What about Darwin's Dinosaurs? The glitches in the Fitches, or whatever? Why did their beaks grow longer? They must have observed that their puny beaks weren't tantalizing to the deep holes of the Galoppolies! Therefor they knew of only one thing to do or they would surely die. They MUST PUMP YOU UP!! And grow bigger beaks..
Seriously though, you wouldn't call that Science?
Then there's The Anglerfish ^;D
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mutations happen entirely by accident, Blue. There is no consciousness of any kind involved, bird or otherwise. DNA replication is not a perfect process - mistakes are occasionally made. Most are imperceptible. Every once is a great while, a replication error will result in a noticeable physiological change.
Basically, it's like someone screwing up a detail on a blueprint (DNA) for spec homes. This results in a home that is slightly different from the others as builders (nucleus, ribosomes, and other organelles involved in making proteins) follow the blueprint (DNA) as drafted - mistakes and all.
Perhaps, through just such a DNA replication error, one bird is born with a mutated beak that is slightly longer. It gets to eat more. As a result, it's a little bigger, healthier, and more attractive to the opposite sex. It gets to mate more. It passes on its genes as a result.
Another bird is born with a mutated beak that is shorter. It eats less. It dies. No chicks. End of story.
Bird ingenuity has nothing to do with it.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Ha! If Science sees consciousness as simply a DNA replication error, then how do does science define the profound experiences of virtue? Love? The many products of consciousness that make life worth living? Science, like the humanities, like religion, like myth is limited in its purview.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Um, yeah Paul. I didn't even remotely state that. As I recall, I spoke only of the finch beak length. Yup, science is pretty damn sure at this point such physiological attributes are a direct result of an organism's DNA blueprint.
Many species are capable of conscious experimentation. Some are also capable of passing knowledge gained from such experimentation to their progeny. Different matter entirely.
That's not to say an organism's neural system is entirely divorced from it's DNA blueprint. That neural system is a physiological structure built from a DNA blueprint, just as much as a beak is.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Anyway, foisting consciousness on science in the attempt to attribute a conscience as well?
I think actually this is the heart of the matter as far as religious people and many other thoughtful people are concerned. Why don't people trust an atheist to be president in all the polls that are taken? It's because no one knows yet what atheist ethics are, but they fear they could be nonexistent or purely situational without some kind of code.
Of course everyone realizes that Judeo -Christian, Islamic, Buddhist codes etc. are routinely broken, but at least we know know what another person is supposed to be doing according to their own teachings. Labels are useful to most people. Then there are the adamant atheists who routinely insult others and don't even display good manners. Altogether it leads to a lack of confidence in atheists for most people.
So the next step seems to me to be an atheist code of ethics that would be widely publicized. Just framing it in a positive language like "atheists strive to be... because of...." would impress a lot of people who are tired of the thou shalt nots which are so hypocritically ignored anyway.
If these ethics were grounded in our natural (as in species as a part of nature) being, "Be the best Homo sapiens you can be", I think a lot of people would sit up and think about that and a dialogue would ensue.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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This seems like it could be a good job for fructose actually, since it is looking to the future and he's interested in the importance and use of precise vocabulary and language.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jgill:
Ok, you got me pulling out my copy of the BG, introduced and translated by Easwaran (2007) . . . .
On pp. 198-199, Easwaran provides the following translation in the BG at 11:32:
KRISHNA:
I am time, the destroyer of all; I have come to consume the world. Even without your participation, all the warriors gathered here will die. Therefore arise, Arjuna; conquer your enemies and enjoy the glory of sovereignty. I have already slain all these warriors; you will only be my instrument.
Easwaran writes a commentary (pp. 192-193):
Terrified, Arjuna wants to know the identity of this awesome God, who bears no resemblance now to the Krishna he had known as his friend and teacher. In answer to the question, “Who are you?” Krishna’s reply is the verse (11:32) that burst into Robert Oppenheimer’s mind when he saw the atomic bomb explode over Trinity in the summer of 1945: I am become Death, the shatterer of worlds . . . “ But the word “kala” means not just death but time, which eventually devours all.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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The anti-atheist sentiment applies pretty much to America and America alone. Go to Japan or Sweden as run for office on a Christian Ethics platform and see how that goes for you.
There is no 'atheist' code of ethics possible because atheism is not a belief system - it's a rejection of religious belief systems due to combination of lack of evidence and evidence of falsehood.
Why does this annoying misconception persist?
Misunderstanding - in the US mostly.
A code of non-secular humanist principles can be readily found in...wait for it - the Bill of Rights.
That code seems to be pretty popular here in God Land. Go figure.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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There is no consciousness of any kind involved,
Silly bird!, Tricks are for kids, watch me pull a rabbit out of a bag!!
those were migratorial birds, when they got stuck there they adjusted to the environment. Or the environment adjusted to them?? Regardless, there was/is a communication going on between plant and animal through colors, and sizes, and smells,etc that we can as observers see they depend on each other for survival. If the glich in the Fich is an accident and he can make do and positively incorporate it onto his DNA(and continue to live), what would cause the plant to want to make a change?
Do you think Plants and Animals communicate(trade info) on a genetic level? FRom ED's link we saw Fungus control an ants brain. Can the broccoli i ate last night in my blood stream now be causing me to crave more broccoli?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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atheists strive to be...
Lol,, How about,
"Atheism, Where anything can happen if just given a Chance!"
Or
"Atheism, Where anything is possible if only given enough accidents!"
Or
"Atheism, We're all just accidents including those 600 million abortions!"
Or my favorite,
"ATheism, Sh#t Happens!"
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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"A code of non-secular humanist principles can be readily found in...wait for it - the Bill of Rights."
I can hear the "Dude's" response to the founding fathers now: "yeah, well like that's just your opinion man."
In a culture bound by relativism where absolutes are considered nothing but political impositions, humanist principles require a remarkable philosophical authority and I wonder if that authority can be found in a nature in which the primary principles are tooth, claw and power.
Why shouldn't we enslave our fellow man, why shouldn't we do just as we damn well please?
Let the fittest survive and the sure fate of the unfit should be what nature has always determined.
Whether its Christ preaching "do unto others" or the Buddha extorting the nobility of joyful participation in a world of sorrows, the wisdom of myth and religion in our relation to others shouldn't be out of hand dismissed; it's what makes our truths self evident.
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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Mike L,
When I write prose the ideas and words seem to flow from present or accumulated thoughts. Sometimes they are in answer to arguments or discussions I am witness to. Other times they are an attempt to contribute to these same arguments or discussions. The more passionate my opinion, the more deeply compelling becomes the need for me to voice my personal ideology or experience with a subject (probably what most people do when writing?).
Writing poetry feels like I'm drawing from an even deeper level of my psyche. Sometimes it feels like I'm recycling old ideas and other times it almost feels like what I'm thinking and writing is completely original.
The joy is in the doing and it's hard to take credit for merely rearranging language when it's so damn much fun. Whether others care or agree with it at all, its a huge bonus when people actually appreciate or acknowledge it.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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You know what makes the principles embodied in our Bill of Rights self evident?
The courts and voters.
Not that Buddhism et al isn't just fine, but it's also toothless.
All attempts of religion to ramrod their brand into the mix aside (WE'RE RELEVANT!!!), secular humanism has no need for it - hence, you know, the word 'secular'. It's beginning long predated Christianity, in any case. Besides, basing any system of values on a falsehood is bankrupt on its face. Why start with a lie?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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"You know what makes the principles embodied in our Bill of Rights self evident?
The courts and voters. "
... and slavery? Is it a self evident right to own slaves if the people and the courts will it?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Bushman, I both acknowledge and appreciate your poetry!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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DMT, I was expressing the general feeling of people who are made uncomfortable by atheists, not my own personal opinions although I think Dawkins et al do lack manners. But then, so do many ignorant and crazy religious people.
As for bias, everyone is biased. The only hope is to become aware of what our biases are, and try to mitigate them. Anyone can do that, religious, or atheist.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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The most religious countries in order: Ghana, Nigeria, Armenia, Fiji, Macedonia, Romania, Iraq, Kenya, Peru, Brazil.
The most atheistic countries in order: China, Japa, Chzech Republic, France, South Korea, Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Iceland, Australia, Ireland.
You be the judge.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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There is no 'atheist' code of ethics possible because atheism is not a belief system - it's a rejection of religious belief systems due to combination of lack of evidence and evidence of falsehood.
i'm glad you said this and not me!
although wouldn't you agree that EVERYONE lives under a blief system and chooses each day what ethic code to pertain to or not?
The anti-atheist sentiment applies pretty much to America and America alone. Go to Japan or Sweden as run for office on a Christian Ethics platform and see how that goes for you.
This is where it's confusing, your bashing us, the US, for being anti-atheist. Then you define an atheist as a rejector of religious belief systems! What Gives?
who's attacking who again??
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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slavery took a war. i didnt include that because that's an implosion of governance, not its proper employment.
The Bill if Rights is an idea on a piece of paper. Our actions make it reality.
There will always be conflict between those who believe in the promise of the Bill of Rights and those who view it as an obstacle to concentrating power and wealth. Welcome to America.
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