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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 17, 2014 - 09:03am PT
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in cali, "navigable" means that a lake, river or stream can support pleasure boating for at least part of the year.
in the national audobon decision on mono lake, ladwp diversion of seasonal feeder streams was limited because those streams impacted the navigable body of mono lake. seems to have been the same thing here-- the court didnt rule that public trust applies to groundwater, only that in this case, groundwater pumping was harming the navigable body to which the doctrine does apply.
i expect this 'll go to the cali sc, but i doubt the sc would overturn on the basis of doctrine-- there might be other technical problems with the decision that i'm not competent to opine about.
but i expect there'll be a slew of lawsuits many of which will push at the definitional boundary for "navigable." i expect it'll be a mess, since we seem to know remarkably little about how water flows beneath the surface.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 09:21am PT
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Mouse from Merced, interesting diagram, but what about odor issues.
Of course, now that Jennie and I live in the sticks, hanging laundry with a curious cow looking over the hedge, and coming back from our weekly jaunt in Wexford town, passing by the manure plant, just put a clothes pin on your nose, I thought.
Chaz, I see you want to blame Brown for what happened some years ago and now. Nice try, but it does not wash in my eyes.
IMO, it has been a collective issue, regardless of political parties, that have failed to address the issue, and many Californians who think they are "here in Ireland" (meaning lots of water), which, believe it or not, does have some water issues.
I will write further about the water politics here in Ireland. But, the water politics in California are "miles ahead/behind" (take your pick) of solving the Golden State's hydrological problems. Oops, a big word there but I did study some hydrology courses at Columbia College back in the mid-1970s, when the Stan, Tuolumne and other rivers were flowing a bit, eh, shall we say, better.
This is not about the current or indeed previous governors, as such, this should be a collective effort - by politicians, scientists, administrators, agriculture, urban/suburban/rural users.
I know that sounds, uh, well - naive, simple, understatement, overstatement, whatever…
So Chaz, people of your ilk want to blame Brown. That is your choice. But you must know that it is not so simple to point a finger at a man who you do not agree with ideologically. What did other governors do? How proactive were they in addressing what is a long-running natural history issue in California?
Answers please, in a polite manner.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 17, 2014 - 09:52am PT
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On that chart that Ed posted above, why does SLO county come in so high on water usage/population? There's wineries there, but what else is such a big water draw? I didn't think that was that big an agricultural area.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 17, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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hey there say, jingy... you just reminded me of stuff my mom has taught me... in fact, she and i had just talked about some of this recently... she was from ohio and moved out to calif in the mid? 60's...
as to your quote:
I got a rule during constant drought that we have been living in for the last decade (I can care less what the "official - We are in a drought" date was, but if feels like my entire life has been about conserving water due to drought).
In my world I don't see requests to conserve water to be a bad thing... As a human and as part of being in a society I know that having access to fresh drinking water is important...
So I do my best to not waste water. I try to use as little as possible and I get by. When I turn off the spigot I don't feel that I am being slighted, or that I am doing something against my will, or that I have lost any personal freedoms.
this reminds me what my mom always says to me...
she, even when not in the 'worried' drought times (seems drought-word hangs around calif a lot, if you grew up there, long enough) she was a
conscientious 'watch the water'...
she turned her yard into a more natural state, to accommodate this...
her sister, later in life (in ohio) lived with a well, and had to watch her water use, and--it is a good practice for anyone to 'go through'...
thanks for sharing... we forget what most of the world has to do, as to water... a very precious precious thing...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 17, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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why does SLO county come in so high on water usage/population?
huge producer of grapes, but also some vegetable row crops and lots of graze/alfalfa
slo is a really big ag region, which is why the college is such an aggie school.
it's also why that brewpub continues to be one of the most reliable booking venues for decent country music acts like jackson taylor.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 17, 2014 - 10:05am PT
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could be that Ed screwed up the FIPS county codes... he'll check again...
that's correct SLO...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 17, 2014 - 10:46am PT
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Patrick, there is breakdown going on in these "hippie turd piles" no matter what. It is dealt with by using "negative air pressure" created by the vent stack, and by insuring that the decomposing agent is aerobic bacteria, not anaerobic bacteria.
Read this fascinating treatise next time you sit on the throne...
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/05/31/composting-toilets-not-gross-at-all/
I bet they got one up at "TP Resort."
I haven't a Clue as to whether they actually do, but it might be the basis for a cool new board game, Loo: Colonel Mustard, in the compost yurt, with a used guidebook page.
When things go to sh!t, just laughing about it makes you feel better sometimes.
Agree or not about any of the drought-related issues, we are still a "society" and we all sink or swim based on cooperation, not profiteering.
And the heat goes on...same as it ever was--water flowing underground...but not near as much of it as before...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 17, 2014 - 11:09am PT
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It is idiotic to require 20% reduction across the board. Current usage should not be the baseline.
These fines are just political gimmicks. If anyone really wants to provide economic incentives, then make everyone pay the same price for water.
Having everyone pay the same price for water is no disincentive to the waste of water....it is merely a mechanism for the lower and middle class to subsidize the rich, who have larger properties, with lusher landscapes, bigger pools, more water features.
When I lived in Sacto, there was no metering of water, and everyone payed the same, and the water use was through the ceiling. Still is.
In my mind, the incentive should have to do with rates: rates what they are now for 20% less/gallon. for the next 100%, 2X, for the next 100% 5X, for the next 100%, 10X.
No impact on those who save. Huge impact on those who waste, and will finance many of the things needed.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 17, 2014 - 11:16am PT
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this data is all 2005
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 17, 2014 - 11:24am PT
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Having everyone pay the same price for water is no disincentive to the waste of water....it is merely a mechanism for the lower and middle class to subsidize the rich, who have larger properties, with lusher landscapes, bigger pools, more water features.
actually, if we charged a market rate for water, we'd have plenty. we massively subsidize agricultural water-- an dif we didn't, most of cali ag would disappear tomorrow.
a genuine market mechanism would actually be more egalitarian than what we currently practice. but it'd be an economic catastrophe for the central valley.
folks in ag econ sometimes talk about "market reform" for irrigation water, but what they usually mean is letting big farmers buy water at below market rates and then sell it at market rate to their small farmer neighbors. the big farmers can then use the profits to dig megawells and drain the aquifer out from under their poorer neighbors. then they can turn around and sell that water back to their neighbors, too, if they deice that's more fun than farming.
happening right now all over the central valley and on your tax dime.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 17, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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of course, agribusiness pays taxes on its production...
the question is where the balance is, in terms of people-centric productivity (water to the urban centers) vs. agribusiness productivity.
when the state productivity is dominated by the need to have more people, with little economic loss due to the reduction in agribusiness, then you'll see the water rights renegotiated.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 17, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
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Rant: I really wish my neighbor would quit watering her super green lawn in the middle of the day.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
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Stevep, that is a good point. As far as wineries go, vines do not need, indeed do not necessary like, a lot of water (depending on the soil, but generally), however, having grown up in a tiny winery (about 1,000 cases/year), working in wineries in California and France, the water issue with such is washing tanks, etc.
But by the chart, SLO does seem to go through a fair amount of water.
I still think, perhaps foolishly, if managed properly, a lot of California's water problems, while not being solved or alleviated, could be lessened with better management, informed water users at all levels, and a collaborative effort on all users. A pipe dream?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 18, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
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"...Merced's water use was down by an average of about 12% from last year..."
Toujours le caveat:
"Despite dfforts like those in Merced County, water usage has risen in the state. Californians as a whole have failed to conserve water during the worst drought in a generation..."
And the UC Cooperative Extension rep. concludes that "...setting higher fines to push conservation would likely knot lead to sustainable changes to water use."
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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Jul 19, 2014 - 08:29pm PT
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This excessive monsoonal flow is bringing an abnormal amount of summer time precip to CA. There are showers and thunderstorms popping up across much of the southern 2/3 of the state right now with chances for rain all up and down the central valley and bay area tonight.
Also interesting to look at the 72 hr precip totals, there have been some locally heavy rains this week.
http://www.cnrfc.noaa.gov/google.php?type=precip
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 19, 2014 - 09:35pm PT
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rain dance...duh.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 19, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
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Just for perspective, the actual numbers:
the MWD sells water from the sacto River to LA for $861 /af.
The cost to farmers in the central valley is $20
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 20, 2014 - 12:03am PT
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If that's true, then why do farmers waste their time farming? Seems like they could make a hell of a lot more money selling water than actually farming.
Where else can you turn $20 into $861?
Something has to be very wrong with your equation there, Ken. There's obviously more to it than you let on, if your numbers are accurate.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 20, 2014 - 01:22am PT
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Chaz, if you can find some contradicting numbers, let's see them.
but you might consider that the farmers have no distribution system.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 20, 2014 - 07:58am PT
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If you could drink ag water, then maybe you could compare its price to municipal water.
There are two water systems servicing my neighborhood.
One's the same as everyone else's; Municipal tap water. It's expensive because it's been treated to be drinkable.
The other is agricultural water. The ag water isn't treated, filtered, or even strained very good. I find debris like sticks and dead animals in it all the time. It's cheap because it's simply sent down the line without any treatment whatsoever. It'd kill you if you drank it.
A fifty-pound sack of flour costs nine bucks, yet a little tiny cupcake goes for three dollars.
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