Obamacare.......

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10b4me

Mountain climber

Retired

Nov 12, 2016 - 09:54am PT

They don't realize that police, fire, Medicare, public schools, military and social security are "socialist" programs.

Tad, it's because we were brainwashed as kids. They told us how bad, communism, and socialism were, but they never told us how bad capitalism is.

Something that bugs me is that people mix economic systems with forms of government.
The Soviet Union, and China were dictatorships.

nah000

climber

no/w/here

Nov 12, 2016 - 10:00am PT

madbolter1 wrote: "A small subset of America is going to get a brain tumor that it can't pay for. In coping with that fact, there are other alternatives besides in some way FORCING every other American to "buck up" and "unselfishly" pay for it."

healthcare is one of those things that is not nearly as black and white as other aspects of life. much of our individual health seems to be grounded in collective decisions and histories [environmental and genetic based diseases for example] but much of it is not and seems to be ultimately rooted in individual decisions. and so from a purely philosophical position i can't see how healthcare, from an idealized perspective, should be either solely borne by the individual nor does it make sense to me for it to be entirely borne by the collective. yet, parsing that greyness in reality, seems with our abilities at this point, to be impossible.

my point in saying the above is to be clear that it is with genuine curiosity, that i ask the two following questions mb1:

1. what is the alternative in your statement above that you would advocate? [and if there are two or three that are all good, i'd be interested in those as well]

2. do you have the same issue with publicly funded fire departments as you do with single payer healthcare? [if yes, no need to explain. If no, then why not?]

if you've got time, thanks...

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Nov 12, 2016 - 12:42pm PT

There is definitely a divide in America regarding what different people consider as baseline human rights. I really like this part of the Italian constitution that clearly places health as a universal fundamental human right, but in that statement also places the right and RESPONSIBILITY to work as a basic value of the nation. People get a variety of government benefits guaranteed, but they aren't all sitting at home doing nothing as some people here fear would happen. People work not just to get money to survive, but also to create meaning and satisfaction in life, to feel a part of a community making a contribution, as part of developing one's identity and self-esteem. To claim that giving more baseline human rights would make people wallow in unproductive idle misery being a drain on society is to conflate different concepts and causes.

So here's an excerpt from the Italian constitution:

Health is recognised in Article 32 both as a fundamental right of the individual and as a collective interest, and free medical care is guaranteed to the indigent, and paid for by the taxpayers. Nobody can be forced to undergo any health treatment, except under the provisions of the law; and the law is aimed at the respect of the human dignity.

The Principles recognise the dignity of the person, both as an individual and in social groups, expressing the notions of solidarity and equality without distinction of sex, race, language, religion, political opinion, personal and social conditions. For this purpose, the right to work is also recognized, with labor considered the foundation of the Republic and a means to achieve individual and social development: every citizen has a duty to contribute to society, as much as they can, and the Government must ensure the freedom and equality of every citizen.

One point where they are firmly better anchored than USA:

The Constitution recognises free enterprise, on condition it does not damage the common good, health and safety, liberty and human dignity.

This to me is a beautiful hybrid vision recognizing the merits of trade and enterprise and free markets, but also the need to ensure government regulation to protect what we value in life more than money.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Italy

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

Shetville , North of Los Angeles

Nov 12, 2016 - 01:41pm PT

Madboter...You're delusional...What makes you think mother karma isn't going to ruin your health and bankrupt your life savings...? Do you seriously believe some American health insurance company gives a sh#t about you and is going to bail you out...?

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Nov 12, 2016 - 01:44pm PT

A small subset of America is going to get a brain tumor that it can't pay for. In coping with that fact, there are other alternatives besides in some way FORCING every other American to "buck up" and "unselfishly" pay for it.

the best karma for a religious right wing f*#k like you is for your wife/son/daughter to become deathly ill and then see what happens.

based upon you compassion, i dont see god helping you out.

on the other hand, since you may have retained the right to bear arms there is always that.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Nov 12, 2016 - 02:19pm PT

well, you have some god believer saying that its too bad so sad that someone may not be able to afford healthcare. but by god, dont you dare take my guns away. f*#ker.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

Shetville , North of Los Angeles

Nov 12, 2016 - 02:51pm PT

And throw in a good P---- grab for good measure...

zBrown

Ice climber

Nov 12, 2016 - 02:55pm PT

It can't work as long as chickenshite Democrats keep voting for the Pentagon.
At some point they have to man up and decide whether they want bombs or
healthcare. They can't have it both ways. The insurance companies are
just a distraction.

I have not invesigated this myslef, but it sounds right.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 12, 2016 - 03:44pm PT

1. what is the alternative in your statement above that you would advocate? [and if there are two or three that are all good, i'd be interested in those as well]

2. do you have the same issue with publicly funded fire departments as you do with single payer healthcare? [if yes, no need to explain. If no, then why not?]

I took your questions seriously and have completed writing up answers to them. However, both are WoTs that nobody is going to read with comprehension, will cherry-pick sentences out of context to argue with, and that will be a big waste of everybody's time. I don't have time to argue every nit-picky point. So, I now realize that, although I got cathartic value out of writing what I did, nobody else is going to get the value from WoTs.

I do appreciate your thoughtful approach to the questions, though.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 12, 2016 - 03:55pm PT

Of course they don't care!

You're delusional. Do you think that Americans must be on the hook to pay for EVERYTHING that can go bad in somebody's life?

Implied in freedom is bravery? Are you really a CLIMBER? Prolly a "sport climber" who's never taken a real risk in his life. Huh?

You know ANYTHING about risk, or are you just another cubical-drone who feels ENTITLED to his paycheck (and, damn it, it SHOULD be twice as much, damn my company!)?

You takes your chances, and we're all gonna die. Some will die with more toys and pass some of the toys along to their kids. Some will die with less toys and not pass them along. Big deal! Life isn't fair, and it CANNOT be "masterminded" into being "more fair."

LIFE doesn't come with "maximin" guarantees, and America wasn't founded to (and CANNOT) provide such impossible guarantees! And anybody thinking that the taxpayers have some "moral" responsibility to provide such guarantees are the delusional ones.

For my part, I participate in a program that lowers my risks of healthcare-related bankruptcy. But, guess what? No guarantees! It's just an odds game.

And if I get unlucky, well, I won't come crawling to the taxpayers to bail me out. And I won't be spending taxpayers' money to buy food for my family WHILE I'm putting a 55-inch Samsung TV on a credit card.

And I won't be pumping out more and more kids I can't pay for, while telling the taxpayers': "Sombody's got to pay for all these...."

The liberal program of ever-increasing social entitlements is unsustainable and delusional.

Guess what? The "conservative" program of corporate and military entitlements is ALSO unsustainable and delusional.

But BOTH parties want THEIR entitlements and NOT those of the other party. And that perspective is delusional.

nah000

climber

no/w/here

Nov 12, 2016 - 03:59pm PT

^^^^

[regarding the first of your two posts above mb1]

fair enough...

if you email them to nah000 at hotmail dot com, i'd be interested to read at my own leisure...

regardless thanks to guys like you and JEalazarian, who take the time to articulate positions that i may not have considered before and make me reconsider my own assumptions [even if you rarely convince me to completely change my mind :)]...

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

Shetville , North of Los Angeles

Nov 12, 2016 - 04:00pm PT

Madbolter..I know you are but what am I..?

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 12, 2016 - 04:06pm PT

based upon you compassion, i dont see god helping you out.

As if you have a CLUE what god values. LOL

You are not "compassionate." You just want to FORCE others to be "compassionate" on your behalf and regarding the values you happen to value.

Tell you what, let's actually show our tax returns. I'm serious. I'll put my money where my mouth is, if you will....

Let's show how much of a percentage of our taxable income we gave to charity last year. Can you top 18%? Are you actively supporting ANY third-world children, you know, educating, feeding, clothing them? I am, and I can prove it. Care to rise to that challenge?

I bet you aren't even at 1%, which is typical for Americans, and most of them are "over-counting" when they give some cast-off clothes to Goodwill! LOL

So don't hand me your self-righteous "compassion." I put my MONEY where my compassion is, rather than FORCE others to be "compassionate" INSTEAD of me!

Your TAXES are not "compassion." I bet I (and my company that I own) pay FAR more taxes than you do. Again, want to trade returns and see?

I pay ACTUAL charity out of ACTUAL compassion, over and above the taxes I pay.

Get off your ridiculous hobby-horse and recognize that the principle of FORCED-"charity" has ZERO moral value. If you think that God gives a rat's left testicle for your forced-"charity," you are delusional.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 12, 2016 - 04:07pm PT

regardless thanks to guys like you and JEalazarian, who take the time to articulate positions that i may not have considered before and make me reconsider my own assumptions [even if you rarely convince me to completely change my mind :)]...

I appreciate it, Nah. Thanks.

If you'll actually read them, I'll PM them to you, such as they are.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 12, 2016 - 04:11pm PT

well, you have some god believer saying that its too bad so sad that someone may not be able to afford healthcare. but by god, dont you dare take my guns away. f*#ker.

The VAST majority of people claiming they "can't afford" health insurance CAN. They just prioritize other things.

And if you think that Obamacare "insured" them, you are delusional. THEY have finally tumbled to the fact that a $6000 deductible is effectively uninsured. And THAT costs them money (even with subsidies) that they STILL claim they can't afford.

So, yeah, your "compassionate" plan really solved the problem, didn't it?

What people like you don't realize is that people like me honestly want to find solutions that take the FACTS into consideration, rather than just produce knee-jerk reactions to distortions.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 12, 2016 - 04:19pm PT

And throw in a good P---- grab for good measure

And you libs seriously (and hand-wringingly and in violent protest) wonder why you lost this election?

Wow, I'm feeling dirty, seriously, even engaging in this thread. I've reached my limit of that filthy feeling I get from mucking around on threads like this.

You libs OWN it! You can always be SO much more hateful, disgusting, and intolerant than people like me can cope with. Hawkeye in particular is simply amazing! Something about these anonymous threads just cuts the vile bile loose!

Well, I can't cope with the filth anymore.

Meanwhile, enjoy your echo chamber. That worked out well for you when you KNEW you were "winners."

Nah000 is one of the few here I don't have to agree with but can still respect. Props, man.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Nov 12, 2016 - 05:32pm PT

mb1, you are one sick motherf*#ker. no wonders your ropes got shat on.

x15,
thats to take care of his own misery, you stupid f*#k.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Nov 12, 2016 - 07:09pm PT

by the way mb1,

you should get a volunteer job at a hospital telling poor people that sorry, you made poor choices and its not your right to the same medical care as a rich dude.

you have the right personality, you prick.

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Nov 12, 2016 - 08:52pm PT

you should get a volunteer job at a hospital telling poor people that sorry, you made poor choices and its not your right to the same medical care as a rich dude.

If you've ever worked at a busy hospital, you'd know that many "poor people" do in fact make poor choices, often over and over and over.

Life ain't fair. Never has been. There's no way for goverment to legislate that simple fact away on a country this size.

Voluntary charity is great. Good on MB for donating as much as he claims he does. Ultimately that's our only way out of this mess, helping each other out and educating people to make better choices.

Medical costs must come down to levels that ordinary, average people, can afford. Insurance should be for catastrophic events, not relatively routine procedures.

Propping up our failed system by simply trying to pay for it without fixing the root causes of obscene costs will only lead to higher costs and added dysfunction. Obamacare tried this through robbery of those healthy and more fortunate at the point of an IRS rifle. That's not sustainable.