Chipping culprit filmed in NY

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mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Feb 28, 2013 - 02:43pm PT

Typical GDavis for ya right there.

hagerty

Social climber

A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake

Feb 28, 2013 - 02:49pm PT

Curt wrote:

It also demonstrates that all manner of fact and opinion is "moot" to Donald, except for the rather odd perspectives that he alone happens to hold.

Does Donald even know what moot means and which definition rgold was using in his post?

wivanoff

Trad climber

Feb 28, 2013 - 03:03pm PT

Dropline wrote:

This last post of his does a nice job of illustrating...

I really couldn't follow it. It gave me a visual of someone at a keyboard frothing at the mouth.

I don't know Donald and have no ill-will towards him but that visual was the one thing that made me smile in this whole sad affair and resultant threads.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2013 - 03:32pm PT

^^^^
that's f*#ked up.

Glad they ticked the hold, sometimes you forget which spot you enhanced more than others. It's not like the giant dark scar is easy to see or anything.

Dropline

Mountain climber

Somewhere Up There

Feb 28, 2013 - 03:38pm PT

These are sad days at the gunks.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Feb 28, 2013 - 04:04pm PT

that's f*#ked up.

+1

Curt

mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Feb 28, 2013 - 04:16pm PT

Don'chunonuthin? Datswhutcliminiz. Axehni1.

DanaB

climber

Feb 28, 2013 - 07:11pm PT

I have met Rich G on numerous occasions and talked with him briefly once or twice. I've known, and known of Donald since the late '70s.

The mental image I get of Rich and Donald discussing this issue in person - leaves me speechless. A few of you here might understand.

Talk about parallel universes.

Dropline

Mountain climber

Somewhere Up There

Feb 28, 2013 - 07:52pm PT

More like the former is the human embodiment of the sun, the earth, the moon, and the stars, while the latter is lost in space somewhere the other side of Altair 3.

Oldfattradguy2

Trad climber

Here and there

Mar 1, 2013 - 12:58pm PT

This sh#t is awesome, it reminds of some of the BS issues that first attracted me to climbing (and the Gunks) in the mid-70's when I was an impressionable 15-yo lad. Back then it was CH and DH writing letters back and forth to climbing (back when it was still a decent magazine). That was I believe even before Donald found Jehovah and was stealing fixed pins from classic routes for his own projects.

The soap opera is the awesome part, the chipping sucks, if it would have happened at Minnewaska, when I was the Pseudo-law, I would have run his ass right to the cop car, and then gone back to climbing on the tax-payers dime.

Dana B; Yes I understand.............

hagerty

Social climber

A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake

Mar 1, 2013 - 02:11pm PT

Dropline wrote:

I've copied this and quoted it because Donald has a habit of going back and editing and deleting posts, so that responses to his posts seem like non-sequiturs.

Thank you. I see that Donald has indeed edited his post and changed all the "moot"s to "+".

I also see that someone calling themselves Red Swami has a single post with a number of photos of an obscure NY boulder that was chipped in 2009. Interestingly, Donald Perry has posted some of the same photos (actually, he linked to the ones here) in the Gunks.com thread. Does Red Swami = Donald Perry?

donald perry

Trad climber

kearny, NJ

Mar 1, 2013 - 03:06pm PT

DROPLINE “More like the former is the human embodiment of the sun, the earth, the moon, and the stars, while the latter is lost in space somewhere the other side of Altair 3.”

OK, I will try and be clearer, apparently English is not understood here. RGOLD starts out with “Mostly, Donald's points are moot, even when they are marginally coherent. (For an example of the more pervasive incoherence, he singles Bragg and Barber out for hypocrisy even though neither of them has said a word about the current situation.)”

OK, here is WHERE I am the “MOST incoherent” according to RGold. If he is wrong here he should be wrong everywhere else. Why? Well, let’s read it again. RGold: “an example of the more pervasive incoherence”. So if we are to follow RGold’s reasoning, if I cannot deal with this, then why should I continue to post anything. Does that make sense yet? I can go over it some more if you think it doesn’t. Let me know, OK?

Now we can talk about WHAT is the “more pervasive incoherence” according to RGold. What is RGOLD’s point? His point is that Bragg and Barber have been singled out for ridicule. RGold writes “he singles Bragg and Barber out for hypocrisy”. OK, let’s go over that again one more time, what did I do again? I attacked Bragg and Barber for their hypocrisy. Got it? Are we clear on the accusation yet? Do I need to repeat it or not? Let me know, OK? I am really starting to get a sense that I am wasting my time here, but I will go on anyway.

Now we can talk about HOW I singled out Bragg and Barber for their hypocrisy. We shall go where to do this? Well, my letter of opinion of course, that makes sense, right? So let us take a look at it, and read it for the first time, CLEARLY. I wrote: From Don: “My point is that the NY Shawangunks climbing community started out with Henry Barber and John Bragg [2. See Yankee Rock and Ice] who developed higher standards than anywhere else on the planet, and then dropped the ball when Bragg left…”

Who am I talking about here Dropline?, Bragg and Barber or the climbing community? English, … do you speak it? What is the subject and what is the object of this sentence? The subject is “the NY Shawangunks climbing community started out with”. The object is “Bragg and Barber”. OK, who “left” in my sentence? Was it the “NY Shawangunks climbing community” or “Bragg and Barber”? I said they “dropped the ball when Bragg left”. I said Barber and Bragg left, and then went on to talk about the end result.

Now we can talk about HISTORY, to see if I may have failed here, if they did in fact leave the ethical climbing scene by the 1980’s. Yet this is IRRELEVANT because I have already established what the sentence can and can’t mean. Both you and RGold have yet to deal with my argument or the English language yet, and are talking about something else throughout. Here I am only strengthening my previous argument, that they left, that they were in fact not responsible. Both you and Mr. RGold are attempting to show that I am saying the very opposite of the thing I just proved that I did and did not say. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Yankee Rock & Ice A History of Climbing in the NORTHEASTER United States.

Page 224: “After 1972 Barber widened his theater of operations until it took in the whole planet … Perhaps even more significant was his influence on climbing ethics and style. Following the lead of John Stannard and Steve Wunch, he became an uncompromising proponent of free climbing, disdaining any form of aid. As the region’s most prominent superclimber, he powerfully pulled an entire generation of climbers in the direction of high standards of ethics and style … This celebrity’s public career received a severe jolt from an incident on Africa’s Kilimanjaro … In a short space of time space of time Barber went from being the darling of the climbing world to object of scorn in the eyes of many critics. … His impact on climbing standards was therefore probably greater than anyone’s. One of his contemporaries went so far as to say that Barber had “a greater influence than any climber who ever lived,” obviously a judgment difficult to defend, but which was based on the observation that Barber came alone at a time when standards were ready to rise (to catch up with the Shawangunks), so when he showed the way, everyone came along. Once everyone caught up to his level, further progress inevitably slowed, making Barber perhaps “the last great name in North American rock climbing,” to cite another contemporary judgment … no one will ever stand out ahead of the pack nor raise and entire region’s sights so dramatically as did Henry Barber in 1972.

Page 295 “ … the year 1980 saw northeastern climbers question where the future of the sport lay. Nothing significantly harder had been achieved since Bragg’s Kansas City and Wunch’s Supercrack. Indeed, few routes even that hard had been done since Wunsch and Stannard had ceased pushing the standards in 1972 … [the] impressive achievements of 1978-1980 still failed to advance the standards of the Stanard-Bragg-Wunch-Barber era of the first half of the 1970’s. ”

After Barber left, Bragg was a strong influence directly over the area in the 70’s. He said in one instance, Page 234 “If someone did that at the Gunks [speaking of North Conway 70’s bolting], they’d be lynched.”.

From a Richard Goldstone post http://www.neclimbs.com/SMF_2/index.php?topic=3271.0: “As many of you know, John was among the pioneers in the free-climbing revolution in the US in the late 1970's, with a long list of hard free climbs in the Gunks, Eldorado Canyon, and Yosemite.

He made first free ascents in the Gunks of Yellow Wall, Enduroman, and Kansas City, as well as adding the new routes Gravity's Rainbow and Iron Cross. He did Mellow Yellow and Cinch Crack in Eldorado Canyon, and Enema Crack and Orangutan Arch in Yosemite.

Many of John's routes were among the first 5.12 routes in the US, and climbers are only beginning to realize how hard Iron Cross is. Perhaps 5.13, it is only recently being repeated on the lead, so far with pre-placed protection, which Bragg did not use.

John was also part of the first generation of American climbers who simultaneously climbed at the highest standards on ice as well as on rock. His first ascents on ice include Repentance, The Fang, and The Power of Positive Thinking.”

From http://www.gunks.com/content/climb/articles/johnbragg.htm “The Return of John Bragg Most revolutions are delivered by armies of men. This one was delivered by four, The Front Four: John Stannard, Henry Barber, Steve Wunsch, and John Bragg. The Front Four were so far ahead of other climbers in the early 70's that other climbers began claiming "First Human Ascents" when they did something "first", after one of the Four. In the mid 1980's, John disappeared from the climbing scene … “.

The Gunks Guide, Todd Swain, Page 114: “The Zone 5.13- R FA P1 Jeff Gruenberg, Jack Meleski, Spring, 1986; P2 Jack Meleski Jeff Gruenberg, Fall, 1986“

Here is a movie onto it, great movie, the chiseled hold is just out of sight over the lip.

http://tradclimbingvideos.com/twilight-zone-5-13b-shawangunks-1213/

From the TS Guide book: While this rout's crux is on Twilight Zone, the majority of the climb is an independent line. A tremendous amount of work went into this including "improving" holds and the placement of a bolt Starting on the GT ledge. … The second pitch is called The French Connection (aka Jackhammered). From the belay, traverse straight right … then over the roof at a fingerlock (crux, fingerlock chiseled out to "improve" it) to the top (5.12+G).

ruppell

climber

Mar 1, 2013 - 03:17pm PT

then why should I continue to post anything

You shouldn't.

I am really starting to get a sense that I am wasting my time here

You are.

have yet to deal with my argument

Why would anyone bother.

hagerty

Social climber

A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake

Mar 1, 2013 - 03:39pm PT

Red Swami wrote:

Hagerty are you the guy from Grizzly Adams? :-)

No I'm not Donald Perry.

Well, I might be kinda grizzly at this point, but no, not him. Just a long time Gunkie from way back. That would be a hoot! Needed to come up with a forum name some years ago and somehow Hagerty stuck. Not really sure how or why.

Yeah, the cross posting of the photos and Donald's schizoid personality raised the question. Obviously he snagged your photos to make whatever point he's trying to make over on gunks.com, although it now seems he's just arguing over anything for the sake and questionable joy of arguing. The man has a seriously impaired gibberish and drivel filter.

bamboo

Trad climber

pike co

Mar 1, 2013 - 04:26pm PT

more of A gibberish- drivel generator IMO

donald perry

Trad climber

kearny, NJ

Mar 1, 2013 - 04:29pm PT

WBraun you wrote “ donald perry = stupid American “It looks to me like he could have just pulled it off under body weight.” Then he would not have needed to smash and chisel forever as was evident in the video. But since you have no good brain you will just keep on trucking with your nice illusion ...”
#
#

What you are saying here in this sentence is the same as to say you could feel comfortable advising a rescue where, if someone could get some wire around that flake, or some thin webbing left over from a Black Diamond porta-ledge perhaps, all would be safe and sound. If this is the case, than don’t lecture me about “a no good brain”.
#

“LOL” you may be wrong, you may in fact be reckless. First of all, he is hammering up to crack the thing in half, which makes a big difference. You can’t accomplish much hammering up if you want to remove something. If he wanted to break off the flake entirely all he would have needed to do was insert his chisel between the rock and the flake and hit it once. Apparently that likely was not his first intention, that’s obvious, he is doing something else to leave the flake and only crack it somewhere.
#

I have hammered off 100’s of 1000’s of cubic feet of gunite, either attached partially or fully to steel or other surfaces with hand tools and jack hammers. With chisels and lump hammers. What can happen sometimes when you beat on a slab is … nothing. So, by only watching what’s going on here in the video, this is in fact a very poor way to judge how strong the end of the fake was. Again, if you really want to apply pressure and remove the fake economically you need to get under it. Otherwise a demolition job, with a gunite lining will go bankrupt.
#

Furthermore, you can tell from the shot that it is a long way off, and the perspective is poor. Is this how you want me to gauge reality, through a distorted lens? Why do I need to have no brain because I am reserved? Maybe he inserted some epoxy in their first before he hammered on it and it is providing a cushion absorbing the blows. There is epoxy there in the video. I am not going to agree with you about anything solid thorough a telescopic video, that’s not good judgment.