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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jan 23, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
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The point you seem to miss is that some too many bolts on the Grand Wall is not the same thing as driving 450 bolts in with a piston. Can't you get that? It's not gray area Scott. The line of ethics was crossed too far, even in his time.
If he did it on the Grand Wall, you would have a strong case to go chop them.
Arne
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
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And who will speak for the Chileans?
Are they not locals also?
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Jan 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
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From VerticalArgentina, the global south's answer to Alpinist: ¿Fair Means en el Torre?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
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I am having so much fun reading this sh@t that I am kinda starting to hope that routes get chopped every day.
Someone should cut all the fixed ropes off Everest, take that damn bolt off of ship rock, and start to revirginize all cracks that have been beat to hell by pitons by cementing them shut.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
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Nice craggin'/choppin' weather, eh? No wonder...yikes!
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
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How about asking Cesare Maestri if he is ok with the route being chopped? I believe he is still alive. Not sure if this question has been asked. Please forgive me if it has.......
Erik
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
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Is that the dood that shat himself in that video?
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MVM
Trad climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
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I honestly don't see the difference in chopping this route and chopping the Nose of El Cap. If Lynn Hill had chopped The Nose after her free ascent, she would have deprived thousands of aid! climbers (prob. including young Messrs. Kennedy and Kruk) of very proud big wall memories on the Capitan, post-1993. Kennedy and Kruk's free ascent is a proud achievement, but their bolt-chopping party reeks of the same self-congratulatory entitlement that Maestri himself foisted upon that poor, beautiful tower. They should have taken their cue from Hill/Burke/Rodden/Caldwell and left the "tuning fork" at the base of the climb for the Chilean and Argentine climbers to decide about the chopping issue and let their climbing speak for itself.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jan 24, 2012 - 12:41am PT
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Someone please chop the Half Dome Cable route!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 24, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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They should have taken their cue from Hill/Burke/Rodden/Caldwell and left the "tuning fork" at the base of the climb for the Chilean and Argentine climbers to decide about the chopping issue and let their climbing speak for itself.
All the "should haves" in creation are absolutely none of the vanguards concern per what they do - as it must be with that group. It has nothing to do with you or me liking it or respecting it or agreeing with it or (fill in the blank).
"Should have," and all of our opinions are simply not factors, and that's what seems to fry people's circuits - that the vanguard will be the judge, that we cannot control them by any means. We don't matter in this regard, and for some this is reason to tear them down by any means, whereby we play the Devil to those we accuse of playing God.
It's great theater by any measure.
JL
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Jan 24, 2012 - 01:02am PT
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so we don't know how many were Cesare Maestri bolts?
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MVM
Trad climber
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Jan 24, 2012 - 01:34am PT
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All ethics lie with the "vanguard," Largo? I call bullshit on that, as I am sure Maestri thought he was the vanguard, too. Cerro Torre is in a National Park and is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. In globally-recognized preserves such as these, the climbing community either acts according to reasoned consensus or it will lose its "rights." These brash young a-holes have immeasurable climbing skills paired with an immeasurable lack of diplomacy. Americans and Canadians taking the law into their own hands in an international preserve only jeopardizes the freedom currently given to climbers in Los Glaciares.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 24, 2012 - 01:36am PT
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"I honestly don't see the difference in chopping this route and chopping the Nose of El Cap. If Lynn Hill had chopped The Nose after her free ascent, she would have deprived thousands of aid! climbers (prob. including young Messrs. Kennedy and Kruk) of very proud big wall memories on the Capitan, post-1993. Kennedy and Kruk's free ascent is a proud achievement, but their bolt-chopping party reeks of the same self-congratulatory entitlement that Maestri himself foisted upon that poor, beautiful tower. They should have taken their cue from Hill/Burke/Rodden/Caldwell and left the "tuning fork" at the base of the climb for the Chilean and Argentine climbers to decide about the chopping issue and let their climbing speak for itself."
Here's the thing: if Lynn Hill had chopped the Nose, she wouldn't have deprived any aid climbers of anything, because it would have been re-established within a day or two at the most. Same with chopping the half-dome cables (which the NPS probably wouldn't look to kindly on), chopping routes in Squamish, and so on.
And that's the funny thing about this whole Cerro Torre business: there's going to be thousands of posts written by the keyboard warriors (myself included, no pretentions here) but is anyone competent who objects to the removal of the bolts going to actually go up on that mountain and put in new ones?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jan 24, 2012 - 02:05am PT
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Interesting reading here at Rolando Garibotti's website about the history and progression of routes up Cerro Torre. Great quotes from Dougal Haston and Jim Bridwell (second link). Yes, it is clear from Rolo's writings that he holds the Compressor route in contempt but I learned a great deal and many of the descents of other routes are listed as using the Via Ferrata route. Are people going to be able to get down? :-)
I particularly enjoy how he starts off his description!
"If you are interested in getting to the top of the mountain without climbing it, and considering that landing helicopters is illegal in all Argentine National Parks, this gloryfied version of a via ferrata is the route for you. However, if you actually hope to climb Cerro Torre consider the Ragni route on the west face."
Click on the pictures for close ups!
http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre.html
http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html
Erik
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jan 24, 2012 - 02:30am PT
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^^English translation of the Italian above cracked me up!^^
"You and your boyfriend are just the poor idiot"
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Jan 24, 2012 - 02:32am PT
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Jim B
The comment that Baldwin and Cooper were "2 backwoods climbers busting with energy" sounds as if it might be derogatory. I hope not. Your description probably fits the vast majority of those who have climbed at Squamish, in their footsteps and on their shoulders, for the last 50 years. I am happy to call myself a "backwoods climber", although my energy level is way below the busting mark.
Several posters have referenced guides and commercial interests. Are they suggesting that CT is/was a guided peak? If so, how often is/was this done? I had no idea that this might be the case.
More importantly, did Maestri use a sit-start? Did K and K also take the easy way out? Who is up for this next challenge?
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 24, 2012 - 02:32am PT
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Whya can't you speaka the english?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jan 24, 2012 - 02:34am PT
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^^Another one! Interesting that Rolo's website says that 98% of the climbers that voted had never set foot on Cerro Torre!^^
"Perhaps you live in the forest, we do not
a few years ago 'it was decided, in Patagonia, that the way was left as it was
If Brennan & C. wanted to change things, they had to convince others that the idea was better to remove the nails
but if you remove the nails from the way most repeated of Cerro Torre, going against the rules, you are stupid and arrogant (a dowry of Americans?)
Now you can plant the flag, idiot"
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 24, 2012 - 03:13am PT
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To Largo and the few who still support the K&K action.
The issue is not the cleaning of an overbolted route, but the choice dictated by two climbers in a foreign country against the opinion of the locals.
You may argue that Maestri did the same. And he could have done the wrong choice, as most the climbers believe (including myself). But it's up to the locals to judge, more than us.
Personally I am in favour of chopping bolts in some Direttissimas in Dolomites (e.g. Hasse Brandler). But only with a broad consensus and with the approval of the locals.
As already mentioned, K&K action introduces the principle that can cancel historical controversial routes with bolt ladders in a foreign country. I guess anybody is aware of other bolt ladders in US or Canada on historical routes. It would hurt somebody, but maybe it would push the international climbing community to set up some rules.
I want to add few notes about Maestri Compressor's route.
First of all. He used "pressure bolts" (I don't know the technical term in english), which hold much less weight than expansion bolts. K&K could remove them very easily.
Perhaps the wrong choice was to use a heavy compressor. But this explain why in some points they needed to put so many "pressure bolts". Isn't the same when aid climbers need to put several bolts on belays because of their huge hauling bags?
Secondly. We don't know how much ice there was when Maestri climbed the Compressor route, and it cannot be excluded that the ice was filling the cracks. I remember picture of his ascent with a lot of ice all around.
Third. Maestri was coming from two decades in Dolomites, where Durettissima and Superdirettissima routes were "climbed" with bolt ladders. In late sixties this ethic was declined and started to be criticized. Messner article "The murder of impossible" was published in 1971. But this shows that bolt ladders were not such a big deal in those time in Dolomite, Maestri's favourite playground.
Forth, Maestri doesn't reflect the Italian climbing ethics, style and history, but just one of its facets. Bonatti, Messner, Cassin, Vinatzer, etc are different examples of style and ethics.
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Stambecco
Trad climber
italy
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Jan 24, 2012 - 05:13am PT
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In my opinion they did what a lot of people would have loved to do since 40 years but never had the courage (or the chance) to do it (and that still keep a silent approving of K&K job). Still I'm trying to form my opinion, that is conflictual, but if there is one thing for sure, even if I don't like to say it, is that Patagonian mountains belong to the local, but the walls and the routes are a sort of international ground, something like the moon, where nobody has real rights, because it only interests to some top climber, and to NOBODY else, that is one sure point.
But that's the blabla, ad I already said, only three made somethging. Maestri and K&K.
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