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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 13, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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If income tax rates and capital gains tax rates both go up, he'll still be paying a higher rate than his secretary.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 13, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
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Ok Blue, I am asking YOU to show proof that Soros funding the protestors.
You state it as if it is a fact.
Therefore, given your powerful knack for credible source fact verifying BEFORE you speak,
show your sources?
I won't ask you for three credible sources, how about JUST ONE CREDIBLE SOURCE.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Oct 14, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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If Fox funded the Tea baggers, who is funding the sleeping bagger in the park?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:13am PT
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blurring, who paid for the public facilities at the Tea Bagger's gatherings? With that many people, all full of sh#t, clearly they had to have facilities... port-a-potties or something?
I have no beta on that. But at least they found someone to pay for shitters unlike the unwashed masses currently assembled in the streets. They apparently have no regard for spending money for stuff like that.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:42am PT
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Donald..That's one of the Koch brothers giving another payment to the New york police to silence the flea baggers...dude
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
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I like that the political opponents to the Occupy Wall Street protest are dialoging about hygiene, real or imagined.
The irony is not lost on me contemplating a climbing forum wherein most of the members have voluntarily invested large tracks of time for living in the outdoors with the attendant raw conditions that accompany it, such as missing their manicure, forgoing the bubble bath, skipping the shave, nixing the trip to the dry cleaners to press their clothes, while returning nightly to be entombed in the same unwashed bag that hasn't been laundered for months, if not years, on end.
When climbers start turning on protesters with invented criticisms of hygiene, you can be sure the time has come for grasping at straws. Gossamer thin, microscopically irrelevant, desperate straws.
When you are trying to locate the 'Real' and when in so doing you have occasion to look deep inside of yourself and recognize, clearly, that you are completely and irretrievably full of sh|t, so full of sh|t that you stumble upon yourself inverting values unconsciously with no real moral compass, no center to speak of ... you then need to recognize that you are not just disingenuous, not just unenlightened; you're not just another empty facile urgent disingenuous broken human being like the politicians that you so detest, but that you truly are a lost and confused soul. When you finally come face to face with that, it's time to start rebuilding your character and try to work your back to where you once belonged.
Truth is a bit much for some to swallow.
Dirty little boy.
Dirty little girl.
Bad boy.
Bad girl.
No decency.
No truth.
No clarity.
Dirty unintelligent worthless climber.
Get a haircut son.
Hot damn!!!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
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Wes, your chart shows that the incomes of all classes rose. Would you prefer that those of all classes fall, if those of the top 1% fall more than average?
John
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
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When you are trying to locate the 'Real' and when in so doing you have occasion to look deep inside of yourself and recognize, clearly, that you are completely and irretrievably full of sh|t, so full of sh|t that you stumble upon yourself inverting values unconsciously with no real moral compass, no center to speak of ... you then need to recognize that you are not just disingenuous, not just unenlightened; you're not just another empty facile urgent disingenuous broken human being like the politicians that you so detest, but that you truly are a lost and confused soul. When you finally come face to face with that, it's time to start rebuilding your character and try to work your back to where you once belonged.
Hot damn 2. But I'd venture a big part of the problem is their moral compasses are external. They believe what they have been told is right and wrong instead of thinking it through themselves, and allow it to reinforce their self centeredness and empower their lack of empathy.
Dr F. you asked me a few pages back about siding with the Liberals. I'm a radical centrist which means I don't just take the center to sit on the fence, but I choose my positions based on what I think is moral, fair, and pragmatic. In today's current climate I end up siding with the left more often than the right, but I do side with the right occasionally. 20 years ago when the Republicans were more centrist I agreed with them more. But now the somewhat far right is calling the shots the federal republicans are way too far right for me.
Today I see it breaking down as maybe:
Under 2% far left (people who actually want real socialism)
10-15% Left (universal healthcare, free higher education, I'd venture you are in here)
25-30% Left of Center (Average Dems, a lot of "left" posters on the taco, A BIG ISSUE I HAVE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE ANYWHERE RIGHT OF CENTER THINKS THIS GROUP AND THE LEFT ABOVE IS FAR LEFT, SO THEY CAN DISCOUNT WHAT THEY SAY)
20% Independent centrists
10-15% Right of Center
25-30% Right
Under 2% Far Right (Blatant racists, Fascists, Want a Religious State like Iran).
So I'd guess there are twice as many people on the Right as on the Left, but twice as many Left of Center as Right of Center. So the Right is calling the shots for their sides, while the Left of Center is calling the shots for their side. So the whole right is too far right. But I believe the FAR left and right are much smaller and more insignificant than their opposition makes them out to be.
So in summary I'd say a lot of the taco poli-posters are Right, but they view anyone who isn't right (even the right of center and centrists) as far left. Because they don't have the courage or honesty to see reality.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
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Would you prefer that those of all classes fall, if those of the top 1% fall more than average?
Having a bad morning John?
Come on man.. what kind of question is that. Don't get trapped in the negativity. I know it is pervasive at times, and it certainly gets to me also, but I hope that you can see past it.
It seems to me that there is a lot of frustration in the world right now, expressed by both sides. Neither side seems to be doing that great of a job of expressing it, but it certainly needs to be expressed. From frustration about how dominating the government has become, to frustration about how out of balance income has become, this world is getting more and more difficult to live in.
I don't know what the answer is, because we can't even define the problem. We need government, yet we hate government. We need businesses, yet we hate the unbalanced out of control, too big to fail aspect of todays corporatism.
So what gives? To me the answer involves a return to spirituality, but how many people will buy that. Not many. And that is from both sides of the equation.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
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In answer to Lois..
I like that the political opponents to the Occupy Wall Street protest are dialoging about hygiene, real or imagined.
The irony is not lost on me contemplating a climbing forum wherein most of the members have voluntarily invested large tracks of time for living in the outdoors with the attendant raw conditions that accompany it, such as missing their manicure, forgoing the bubble bath, skipping the shave, nixing the trip to the dry cleaners to press their clothes, while returning nightly to be entombed in the same unwashed bag that hasn't been laundered for months, if not years, on end.
When climbers start turning on protesters with invented criticisms of hygiene, you can be sure the time has come for grasping at straws. Gossamer thin, microscopically irrelevant, desperate straws.
When you are trying to locate the 'Real' and when in so doing you have occasion to look deep inside of yourself and recognize, clearly, that you are completely and irretrievably full of sh|t, so full of sh|t that you stumble upon yourself inverting values unconsciously with no real moral compass, no center to speak of ... you then need to recognize that you are not just disingenuous, not just unenlightened; you're not just another empty facile urgent disingenuous broken human being like the politicians that you so detest, but that you truly are a lost and confused soul. When you finally come face to face with that, it's time to start rebuilding your character and try to work your back to where you once belonged.
Truth is a bit much for some to swallow.
Dirty little boy.
Dirty little girl.
Bad boy.
Bad girl.
No decency.
No truth.
No clarity.
Dirty unintelligent worthless climber.
Get a haircut son.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
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Three weeks without a bath
hahaha.. as though they couldn't figure out how to get clean.. too funny.
, smoking dope and shooting heroin.
mercy..
Maybe their parents who they leech upon have used these weeks as a good opportunity to air out their rooms.
What an out of touch pathetic faux news driven statement.
...
Edit: Perhaps you were trolling. If so.. touche', though the trolls are getting old. If not.. damn woman.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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We have been under a full moon for the past 20 years or so.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
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When climbers start turning on protesters with invented criticisms of hygiene, you can be sure the time has come for grasping at straws. Gossamer thin, microscopically irrelevant, desperate straws.
HAHA!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 14, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
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I don't know what the answer is, because we can't even define the problem. We need government, yet we hate government. We need businesses, yet we hate the unbalanced out of control, too big to fail aspect of todays corporatism.
So what gives? To me the answer involves a return to spirituality, but how many people will buy that. Not many. And that is from both sides of the equation.
John, I was just looking at a graph that showed that all income levels rose and fell at similar times, but in the rise, the top income levels rose faster, and in the fall, the top income levels fell faster. A logical conclusion of that graph is that when top incomes grow, so do the bottom ones. When top incomes fall, so do the bottom ones.
This runs counter to the zero-sum school that seems to motivate the anti-rich, anti-business crowd. It also explains why their rhetoric is to incite envy of that top 1%. I find envy not only unproductive, but immoral. I find it particularly immoral to wish the top 1% ill if doing so reduces the incomes of everyone else, as the chart suggests it does.
I agree that we face a moral failure, particularly when we substitute materialism for concern for our neighbors, but covetousness is also a part of that moral failure. When we covet what others have, we start to justify force and worse to get it.
If that constitutes having a bad day, so be it. I'll admit that my Fridays begin with an alpine start without alpine adventure (I have a meeting every Friday from 5:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m.), but I think my post reflected mere analysis of the chart presented.
John
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 14, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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From the Congressional Budget Office: an explanation for our unrest:
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Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
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Oct 14, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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The difference is that climbers CAN'T wash up when they are "on the road" so to speak
Sure climbers can wash up. There's creeks and lakes.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Oct 14, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
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This runs counter to the zero-sum school that seems to motivate the anti-rich, anti-business crowd.
I agree that Wes's chart demonstrates that everyone is better off today than they were in 1979 (assuming his caption is correct and these are real, i.e. inflation-adjusted, numbers.)
And IMO, an economy where everyone's wealth and income grows over the long term is an economy that is working. We really shouldn't care if one group sees more income growth than others, provided everyone is doing better and everyone gets opportunity to move upward.
We also should not forget that the the top "1%" is not a fixed class. It's worth noting that the man at the very top of that 1%, Bill Gates, was middle class in 1979. Many of the wealthiest people in America today earned their wealth during their lifetime. This upward-mobility is a sign of an economy that, in general, works well for everyone.
It also explains why their rhetoric is to incite envy of that top 1%. I find envy not only unproductive, but immoral. I find it particularly immoral to wish the top 1% ill if doing so reduces the incomes of everyone else, as the chart suggests it does.
The chart doesn't suggest that anyone is "wishing ill" toward anyone else. It may show that some people are using a standard for "fairness" that is unproductive. I agree that focusing on the large growth of the top bar while ignoring that the others have grown as well is an incomplete and flawed interpretation.
Perhaps it would be ideal if growth across all strata of society were consistent, but it would be folly to try to develop policy that would attempt to produce such a result without the risk of screwing up the economy for everyone. I personally don't care if the rich get richer, provided that the the poor don't get poorer.
Although the trend since 1979 looks encouraging, the trend in the past few years probably is not so rosy. Poverty has increased in recent years, but growth at the top is still trending upwards.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/more-americans-chinese-t-put-food-table-132752601.html
So the chart that starts at 1979 is useful, but the problem today is what we would likely see on a similar chart that starts in 2006 or so: continued accumulation of wealth at the top while the bottom is falling off into unemployment and poverty. This condition is unacceptable in America.
While some may find it immoral that some people wish rich people were less rich, I find it immoral that children are going hungry in the wealthiest society on earth.
Which of these immoralities should receive more attention in our public policy?
 Dave
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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I will have you know, Mr. John Moosie, that I made that comment up myself. I is educated nuff to think on my own, sometimes.
I'm certain that I knew that Lois. I didn't say you copied the statement. I meant that the thought is typical of right wing rhetoric, especially that which comes out of faux news, and I thought that you were above that. But if those are your real feelings, then I feel sorry for you, as that would mean you didn't really understand what is going on and I don't have a clue as to how to help you understand.
..
John
but covetousness is also a part of that moral failure.
Of course, though I think that it is a small part of what is going on today. Instead I think that the main driving force of this groups frustration has more to do with the growing gap between the wealthy and everyone else, and how much of our government is controlled by the elite, who doesn't really care if the economy goes south because they stand to make massive fortunes during downturns, and thus they work against what is better for our society.
This isn't a left or right thing. Both sides have their elite.
As for the tea partiers versus the wall street protesters, I think both sides have legitimate beefs, and that our media has generated much of the hatred by focusing on the negative aspects, and not on the real frustrations. Though I can't for the life of me understand why the tea partiers would accept and cheer someone like Glenn Beck, who I feel is a distraction from the real concerns.
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