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sempervirens
climber
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may as well jump back in...
I questioned JK's motivations. I am glad he started the whole process of exposing these issues. He deserves credit for that.
I mentioned the $75K only because I don't believe that is what is motivating him. I didn't say he should not care about $ because he's got enough. I didn't say he should not ask questions. I doubt he expects a refund. I doubt that he does care about the $75.
I wonder if JK has mixed feelings about GM, CAI and the whole affair. I have mixed feelings, 'cause it still seems like a great idea for us as people, as climbers, as a nation, to fund schools there. GM looks guilty to me and should be made to answer for himself. I don't intend to donate to CAI again ever, regardless of any changes they might make. There are better places for my resources.
What I've read by and about JK is impressive and admirable. I have no reason to dis his credibility or his character; I haven't done so. Whether he summited Devil's Thumb is not a concern of mine. What CAI did with my paltry $200 is a concern.
To me JK's motivations are not obvious and simple. Is it just the pursuit of truth? Anger over his monetary donations? Is it concern for the people of Pakistan? Is it revenge? Jealosy? I doubt it's jealousy. A combination of the above? Anyway, Mortenson is ruined. It's gotta sting a bit to be the catalyst.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Suspending financial support to CAI and CAI supported schools will mean great disappointment to the children...in some cases a frightful disappointment.
A community school is much more than a place to pick up knowledge and learn life skills. How many adults remember the excitement of entering school... the sights, sounds and smells...the feeling of setting out on new adventure...
A child understands he or she leaves the care of the family for a few hours and assumes care and direction from a trusted and hopefully benevolent teacher. A village school is an important extension and prerequisite of community...and in many parts of the world a place that declares "mobs and bullies don't rule here."
Giving...then withdrawing support sends an ominous message about OUR civilization.We love to be seen giving money and getting salutes but quickly accept any excuse to recant and bow out.
Children may elect to side with barbarian elements if they believe their survival is at risk. Promoting, and helping fund, a well structured education on a people to people principle is far less expensive than fighting them through the caves and caverns.
Do we really want to miss opportunity to do good and meaningful things while waiting on our foremost narcissists dueling for lead singer in this opera?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jennie, you are right, which is what is so heartbreaking about the allegations about CAI.
On the other hand, these days, we have options for picking the best ways to give; we don't have to just buy into the charity with the most charismatic person at the helm. This was not the case a decade ago.
A quick google search for "charities for schools for children in afghanistan" reveals that there are a number of charities doing similar work to CAI. Here's a couple:
http://www.helptheafghanchildren.org/
http://www.afghanschools.org/
This page gives an overview of several non-profits and their work in Afghanistan:
http://cperce.wordpress.com/2010/10/18/the-very-best-afghan-charities/
Someone upthread (or was it another, related thread?) posted some great pics of the work they and their tiny non-profit been doing in Nepal or Tibet.
I know nothing about the worth of the work these other organizations do. I'm just suggesting that there ARE other options even within Afghanistan, ones that may, perhaps, make more effective use of each dollar donated.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Thanks for the links Crunch...perhaps very worthwhile possibilities for reliable accounting of donations.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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From 2001 until she died, my mother was involved in "Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan". It seemed pretty effective.
http://www.cw4wafghan.ca/
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Tony
Trad climber
Pt. Richmond, CA
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Rick A,
Thanks from me too for your articulate and knowledgeable posts regarding the unfolding story about GM and CAI. I became familiar with Founder's Syndrome when we were in the process of stepping away from a wildlife rehab organization that suffered from the same disease. It was amazing to read how common and similar the examples were. It seems the #1 way to avoid it is to have a strong, independent board of directors. Of course, this is frequently anathema to the "charismatic" leader. The tendency to blame the messenger, in this case JK, is strong. It's striking to hear how those who know or have met Krakauer have opinions so divergent from those who continue to defend GM, who also seem to ignore the similar judgements from those like Tom Hornbein who were within the organization. It's good to know there are other organizations carrying out similar work without all the hoopla.
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laughingman
Mountain climber
Seattle WA
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I want to see what the forensic accountants find when they get bust open the books....
Anyway for a "real" charity I suggest the "Halo trust" ( UXO and land mine removal) they do good work....
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snowleopard
Mountain climber
Beijing, China
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Boy Rick, I really get under your skin don't I?
Didn't know that there was a hunt to discovery my identity. Everyone is allowed their opinion, and if you read the threads around the globe since the Outside article (which you can now buy on BYLINER) you will see that the majority of people commenting are telling Krakauer to get a life.
My dog in this fight is you forget this is about educating girls. The girls Mortenson educates wear scarves on their heads and the only reason this issue is even on this page is he climbed a few mountains in his youth. Big damn deal. The issue is not his climbing record, it's his school building records.
What have you done to make the world a better place besides complain about me? And I work two jobs, I don't have time to get back to you each time you would like to diss me here.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Rick was involved in one significant 501 (c)(3), for some time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was involved in other charities and non-profits, but don't know him very well. However, Rick is a well known and upstanding member of our community, known to many here. He's also a lawyer, and so quite familiar with that side of things.
As you observe, this is about the governance (or non-governance) of a high-profile non-profit, its accountability (or lack thereof), the doings (or misdoings) of a central figure in the non-profit, and the consequences. And it would be nice if it led to positive results, in terms of CAI surviving, and being focused on and using all its resources for its mission. It's not about you, or Rick - nor is it likely that you'll manage to get under his skin. Still, who are you, and what is your interest in all this?
ps Not sure what gf means by "an overhead structure not exceeding 2%". Even the Franciscan's overhead is more than that, and they have 800 years of practicing poverty. Do you mean 20%? That's at least in the icerink, in terms of reasonable administrative (non-program) expenses for a charity. There can be good reason for unallocated overhead to be more than 20%, but it's rarely less. If a charity claims its administrative expenses are much less than 20%, let alone that "all funds are used for programs", it's likely lying, playing accounting games, or possibly all expenses are being absorbed by volunteers/individuals, and so may not appear on the books. But they're there.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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The issue is not his climbing record, it's his school building records.
Both records have something in common; a credibility gap.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Snowleopard-
Welcome back.
I challenged you months ago to discuss the facts supporting your opinions about Krakauer, rather than engage in name calling and ad hominum attacks. After a long silence, you return with more of the same name calling and personal attacks. This is tiresome, but it is not unexpected at this point.
As to revealing your identity, the climbing world is small and many of us know each other around here. So I was mildly curious after your first posts about who you were and whether our paths might have crossed while climbing. This is a climbing forum, after all.
When you were mentioned in Outside as a blogger from Beijing whose hobby (between your two jobs) was writing crude verse expressing your hatred of Krakauer, it did not take a master’s degree to make the connection to your posts here, where you identified yourself as living in Beijing and your posts crudely express your hatred of Krakauer.
You ask what I have done to improve the world? Well, I haven’t built any schools in Asia, certainly. On the other hand, I haven’t solicited charitable donations from thousands of young school children by telling them that every penny they donate will be used to build schools, and then used that money to fly my entourage around in a Learjet. Thanks for asking.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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The girls Mortenson educates wear scarves on their heads fyyfff
nearest woman with a scarf is a ¿@#%&*«¡ load smarter than the author of a phrase like that.
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Gene
climber
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Silver,
BRAVO!!!
g
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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^^^^^^^
Now there is an opinion that I agree with 100%!!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Yeah, if you think Krakauer is doing this for publicity then you really do not know Krakauer. He has been very up front all along about his motives. One reason it appears that he has been aggressively pursuing the truth in this whole affair is that the response from Mortensen and the CAI to all the allegations is not to go public, but rather to get even more secretive about what they are doing. That's a huge red flag and makes the truth even more worth pursuing in my book.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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That's a huge red flag and makes the truth even more worth pursuing in my book.
Do you feel it is probable that legal counsel advised them to not make statements above and beyond what they have been doing, since there are investigations going on?
I still stand by my opinion - that inexperience and overwhelm have created this maelstrom, and not intentional fraud on the part of GM. Legally, it may turn up as guilty, as "ignorance is no excuse" when it comes to legal issues.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jennie is not a "twit."
Jennie is also not a woman. or a Mormon.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Honest journalism is dead.
Horsesh#t. And insulting to a lot of honest journalists. It implies, like similar pronouncements about other fields or activities, that a golden age of honesty and general wonderfulness existed in the past, and that modern practitioners are a bunch of losers or slimeballs by comparison.
Investigative journalism is alive and well. Big money still exerts a huge influence on news reporting, but if you were to go back to that wonderful past you dream of, you'd find that things were, if anything, worse. Why? Because while the mainstream media were under the thumb of money and power in the past, just as they are now, the internet allows lies to be exposed in a way they never were before.
Yes, there are dishonest journalists now, just as there have always been, but to say that honest journalism is dead is an insult to those of us who ply the trade with integrity.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Nice post Ghost. Could not have said it better.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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is her Mormon Religion and JK's damning book that concerns this Cult/Religion. Not one fact that is disputed by the way.
Riley, Under the Banner of Heaven is about the 1984 Lafferty murders in American Fork, Utah by two excommunicated LDS men, who formed a sect of their own. The book isn’t a compendium review of Mormonism.
This book was controversial from the beginning and the LDS chuch issued a statement , shorty after publication, characterizing Mr Krakauer as a storyteller who cuts corners to make the story sound good.
The book has many mistakes and Mr Krakauer, himself, admitted to several.
Krakauer juxtaposes some Mormon history and misunderstood LDS doctrine onto his narration of the case. The notion of “Blood Atonement” is pushed in the book. Blood atonement was never LDS doctrine and there is no evidence that anyone was "blood atoned" at the orders of LDS leaders.
If you’re interested in reading the book , I can offer you a free copy.
Some here disagree with my opinions about Mr Krakauer and choose to delineate my identity as non-mormon and non-female…the prototypal ST tactic to weaken the credibility of a poster’s view …the reckless conjecture about Lois’ identity for years on ST, is manifest example.
The most disturbing charge against CAI, to me, was that over thirty schools were built and standing empty or at least unused. What deceptive strategy would employ thirty empty schoolhouses at varoius remote locations as decoys to CAI and/or Mortenson's sinister purpose ?
In fact, some of these "empty" schools serve nomadic people, who move their yurts with the seasons to make the most of available pastureland.
The "ghost" school photo Mr Krakauer provides, of the "empty" Bozoi Gumbad School was, in fact, not empty. The school convenes only during the summer and autumn months when the nomadic Kyrgyz people reside there.
Why didn't Mr Krakauer check with in-country project managers or area education committees relative to whether or not education was actually taking place in these schools ?
60 Minutes surely knew they had a major story. I'm alarmed the brain trust at CBS couldn't (or wouldn't) see the coming devastation to charitable school funding for Afghanistan... and contain overweening egos until careful scrutiny of facts was accomplished.
I agree things look bad for Mr Mortenson, even though his website claims CAI continues ghrowing. His choice of keeping silent about the charges will work against him. If he has indeed defrauded thousands of contributors…in amassing personal wealth and his efforts benefitting the children of Afganistan was appled only in superficial ways…certainly he needs be held accountable… and his wrongs articulated…but forgive me if I don’t do my own moralizing from atop the Jon Krakauer bandwagon.
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