Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 01:35am PT
|
I don't find it all too freaky, having worked with radiation all my professional life...
certainly there will be elevated levels of radiation in the atmosphere from the reactor venting
realtime news feed with no analysis or background from reporters who don't know anything more about this than the general public certainly isn't a good way to get information
in any such emergency, the safety system designs are pushed into the territory of the unknown, which should be obvious. since the designs attempt to address the possible worst case situations the expectation is that, in the end, these accidents will not result in a catastrophic reactor core containment breach and a Chernobyl-like disaster.
the fact is that we can't test these systems in the extreme, and we can't anticipate all the possible failure modes. The affect of the tsunami on the diesel generators and the extent of the damage to the power grid probably didn't make the list of likely failures... from now on these scenarios will be addressed. that doesn't help now
all living species on the earth have had to put up with varying amounts of radiation, it didn't seem to bother anyone prior to the discovery of radioactivity around the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries... we have, as a culture, an extreme phobic reaction to the idea of any additional radiation, quite unaware of the exposures we are subjected to "naturally." we even tolerate medical uses of radiation of which we have little understanding or knowledge of, and we do not understand the environmental existence of radioactivity and the implications for our exposure.
health effects have been studied for low level radiation doses and have been inconclusive, probably because they are not a factor in disease... some studies even claimed a effect for low doses.
how much radiation we might be exposed to awaits the final act of this drama playing out in Japan, I know that the workers and managers at those power plants are working through this disaster with the intent to prevent any wider tragedy. unfortunately, only time will tell if those safety systems are capable of withstanding the earthquake and its aftermath.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 01:41am PT
|
unintuitively, it is the short lived stuff that is more radioactive than the long lived stuff...
the faster something decays radioactively, the less of it there is to decay
uranium, which is dug out of the earth, has a long lifetime and isn't particularly dangerous, all naturally occurring radioactive isotopes are long lived, if they weren't, they would have all decayed away long ago
LLNL is the home of the National Atmosheric Release Advisory Center https://narac.llnl.gov/ which provides forecasting for the spread of hazardous material...
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 01:57am PT
|
MIT's nuclear information hub's lastest blog post addresses the spent fuel rod pools, and the breach in reactor 2
http://mitnse.com/
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 02:05am PT
|
No need to jump to conclusions based on preliminary, almost certainly incomplete, and perhaps outright wrong or speculative information. And there's probably bugger all any of us can do about any consequences for ourselves and the world outside northeast Hokkaido in any event. Many have an alarmist if not apocalyptic streak in face of events such as these, but whether it's paranoia or a reasonable defence mechanism, it probably won't help.
I posted a day or two ago regarding the agencies doing relief work, and still think that donating to them is the right thing to do for now.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 02:14am PT
|
I dunno, Radical, define "worst disaster" and "modern human history"?
Chernobyl was far worse, and doesn't sound like there is any chance of it getting to that level.
2004 tsunami was worse...
WWII? (maybe not technically a disaster?)
Climate change? (we have no idea how bad that is going to get, so in the future).
Meh, this is depressing, I'm going to bed. On the bright side, we're not to Chernobyl's level, yet (thankfully).
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 02:23am PT
|
I think the crews are back, and the only reactor in any sort of possible bigtime trouble (with regards to a containment breach) is Reactor #2. From what I understand, it isn't possible to have a Chernobyl because the reactors are shut down and Chernobyl had NO containment structure.
Also, even in the event of a total breach, there will be a huge amount of dispersion over the ocean before reaching here (bad for parts of Japan, but not as bad for us as some in the media make it sound).
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 02:34am PT
|
Hmmm... I thought I had read workers were back, now I can't figure out where. Let's hope for the best overnight.
(edit: Moosie a few posts back, dunno where he got that info)
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 03:14am PT
|
Rox..I can understand your california bashing and i lived in Idaho for a short while but i just read that the radioactive waste from 3 Mile Island is buried in your homestate...chop , chop....
There was a reactor criticality accident at the INEL west of Idaho Falls in 1961. A small, primitive Army reactor went critical and a steam explosion killed all three operators inside the containment.
When I took Radcon tech classes, a retiree who had been one of the emergency responders to the accident spoke in school...showing slides and answering questions.
A control rod was pulled too far out of the reactor, leading to core meltdown. Apparently the rods could be pulled by hand...one had been "sticking"and a military investigation surmised one or more individuals had jerked violently and caused the fuel to go critical.
The reactor vessel jumped up 9 feet. The outer extension of the control rod impaled one man against the top of the enclosure.
Due to the extensive radio- isotope contamination, all three had to be buried in lead coffins.
When I worked at INL forty- plus years later, there were still low level radioisotopes in the ground within a hundred fifty feet of where this experimental reactor had been.
Two books:
Idaho Falls: The Untold Story of America's First Nuclear Accident by William McKeown
Atomic America: How a Deadly Explosion and a Feared Admiral Changed the Course of Nuclear History by Todd Tucker
Reactor design and safety.. as well as radioactive waste handling have come a long way since. I left the nuclear industry and went back to college...but don't regret my short time as a nuke.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 03:21am PT
|
I woke up today to the news that radioactive steam is again rising from the power plant and that the workers had evacuated.
Hopefully rrrAdams can give us an update.
Unseasonably cold weather has moved in across Japan and it is currently snowing and hailing on the northeast coast. The evacuation centers are without heat. At least the prevailing winds will soon start moving the contamination out to sea.
American Forces in Japan have been very busy. So far, helicopters from the U.S.S. Ronald Reagan have delivered over 25 tons of supplies. The Air Force and Marine Corps are conducting search and rescue flights and along with the army, organizing overland convoys of supplies for the relief centers. We have also provided a great deal of the transportation for foreign rescue teams and large numbers of Japanese Self Defense forces.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 03:51am PT
|
On MSNBC just now, the French are saying that it could easily reach a 7 (out of 7) making it equal to Chernobyl if not more. It could turn out to be the worst Nuclear Reactor disaster ever.
Acute radiation exposure studies have been done and we know them well. It is the low dose chronic exposures over long periods of time that are absorbed into the body through: the skin, breathing, eating, or drinking that are not so well known. External exposure is one thing. Internal exposure is another. These internalized radionuclides (radioactive isotopes, aka radioisotopes) can be stored for long periods of time in fatty tissues and the body has a hard time removing them, exposing the body internally for long periods of time. Inside our bodies even alpha decay (which on the outside of our bodies can be blocked with the thickness of a piece of paper) can do serious damage.
Biological Effects of Radiation, by NRC
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/teachers/09.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radionuclide
General Atomic (GA) Poster:
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 04:02am PT
|
When they are talking about the French, I'm assuming they are referring to the French Nuclear Commission (or what ever they are officially called.) It is the same group that said it is already a 5-6 out of 7. They know what they are talking about.
(Tongue in cheek: They are French. They like to be right. And they know what they are talking about, because France is the Nuclear Energy capital of the World.)
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 06:03am PT
|
hey there say, jan... thank you for the updates on the rescue situations...
also, jennie, thank you for those book titles...
someone i know, may want to read them...
:)
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 06:23am PT
|
I had posted this days ago, and need to clarify, as it may be misleading or misunderstood...
The 6"-12" thick stainless steel clad vessel is intact (primary containment), as is the drywell (surrounds the vessel, secondary containment), as is the reactor building itself (sourrounds the drywell, another containment). "When we take credit for something as a 'containment', it means containg 'pressure' as well as contamination', and the thin sheet metal that surrounds the refuel floor does not qualify as a 'containment' structure. So, there are multiple layers to keep the 'bad stuff' in...
As stated above, the ONLY things we take credit for as 'containment' are air tight, and can hold significant pressure. So, a GE Mark I only has two containment structures that we take creadit for: the Rx Vessel (primary), and the Drywell, which includes the torus (secondary). There are other 'fission product barriers' (fuel cladding, reactor building itself), but since these cannot contain pressure, we do not take credit for these as 'containment'.
Also, as to reports that a hydrogen explosion in the torus breached that system... There is no ignition source in the torus... If the torus has been breached, and I had to speculate as to the cause, I would guess that significant steam was vented to the torus, and when it condensed, it created a vacuum greater than equalization valves could compensate for, and this vaccuum caused part of the structure to implode a bit, which could lead to a breach that subsequant pressure could find its way out. It really can handle significant pressure, but not a vacuum.
Lastly... IF the water in the spent fuel pool was allowed to heat up, and boil away, this is uncalled for, as it is easily kept full if just monitered... Thing is, with no power, they cannot remotely monitor it, so they need to visually make sure of the levels in these pools... Note that units 4 - 6 were in refuel outages, so the recent fuel from the rector is in there, as well as brand new fuel that would have been reloaded in after the outege... Note that the new fuel is NOT hot, or active until it goes into the reactor and is exposed to significant neutron flus to start the chain reactions.
That spent fuel, especially the fuel that was just removed from the reactor needs to also be kept covered and cool, and it is much easier to get water there than in the Rx.
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 06:43am PT
|
I read yesterday that modern designs are arranged so that the coolant will circulate by convection if the power goes off, meaning one can basically walk away from the reactor after the control rods are in and it will cool itself with no pumps.
Do I have this right Adam?
Would this require the manual opeation of certain valves to enable? This is correct, and I think that they are designed to "fail-safe", meaning when power is lost, the system is designed to "fail" to the correct positions, with no power required. (E.g., power holds a valve open that would need to be closed in the even of an emergency, so it fails closed, and vice versa, where power holds the valve closed, but would need to be open in an emergency)
|
|
Bargainhunter
climber
Central California
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 06:56am PT
|
I just read all 733 posts in one sitting. Thank you all for this informative discussion. I learned from every post.
While following the news online, the article that hits home the most for me was this one that appeared in the NY Times a few hours ago: "Last Defense at Troubled Reactors: 50 Japanese Workers" (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/asia/16workers.html?hp);
"...The workers are being asked to make escalating — and perhaps existential — sacrifices that so far are being only implicitly acknowledged..."
The reader's comments on the article (156 thus far) brought tears to my eyes.
I wrote a haiku to honor the selfless 50 workers who are staying like brave samurai on this suicide mission. What will their fate be?
50 techs steadfast
the bushi of Daiichi
Reactor 2 melts
|
|
Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 07:09am PT
|
I have been through many earthquakes over the years...
But this may spare some future sorrow...
Directly opposite of what we've been taught over the years
I can remember in school being told to "duck and cover" or stand in a doorway during an earthquake. Not only was I taught this, but passed that information on over the years to my students...
This guy's findings are absolutely amazing. I hope we all remember his survival method if we are ever in an earthquake
EXTRACT FROM DOUG COPP'S ARTICLE ON THE: "TRIANGLE OF LIFE"
My name is Doug Copp. I am the Rescue Chief and Disaster Manager of the American Rescue Team International (ARTI), the world's most experienced rescue team.. The information in this article will save lives in an earthquake.
I have crawled inside 875 collapsed buildings, worked with rescue teams from 60 countries, founded rescue teams in several countries, and I am a member of many rescue teams from many countries...
I was the United Nations expert in Disaster Mitigation for two years.. I have worked at every major disaster in the world since 1985, except for simultaneous disasters.
The first building I ever crawled inside of was a school in Mexico City during the 1985 earthquake. Every child was under its desk. Every child was crushed to the thickness of their bones. They could have survived by lying down next to their desks in the aisles. It was obscene, unnecessary and I wondered why the children were not in the aisles. I didn't at the time know that the children were told to hide under something.
Simply stated, when buildings collapse, the weight of the ceilings falling upon the objects or furniture inside crushes these objects, leaving a space or void next to them. This space is what I call the "triangle of life".
The larger the object, the stronger, the less it will compact. The less the object compacts, the larger the void, the greater the probability that the person who is using this void for safety will not be injured. The next time you watch collapsed buildings, on television, count the "triangles" you see formed. They are everywhere. It is the most common shape, you will see, in a collapsed building.
TIPS FOR EARTHQUAKE SAFETY
1) Most everyone who simply "ducks and covers" WHEN BUILDINGS COLLAPSE are crushed to death. People who get under objects, like desks or cars, are crushed.
2) Cats, dogs and babies often naturally curl up in the fetal position. You should too in an earthquake... It is a natural safety/survival instinct. You can survive in a smaller void. Get next to an object, next to a sofa, next to a large bulky object that will compress slightly but leave a void next to it.
3) Wooden buildings are the safest type of construction to be in during an earthquake. Wood is flexible and moves with the force of the earthquake.. If the wooden building does collapse, large survival voids are created.. Also, the wooden building has less concentrated, crushing weight. Brick buildings will break into individual bricks. Bricks will cause many injuries but less squashed bodies than concrete slabs.
4) If you are in bed during the night and an earthquake occurs, simply roll off the bed. A safe void will exist around the bed. Hotels can achieve a much greater survival rate in earthquakes, simply by posting a sign on The back of the door of every room telling occupants to lie down on the floor, next to the bottom of the bed during an earthquake.
5) If an earthquake happens and you cannot easily escape by getting out the door or window, then lie down and curl up in the fetal position next to a sofa, or large chair.
6) Most everyone who gets under a doorway when buildings collapse is killed. How? If you stand under a doorway and the doorjamb falls forward or backward you will be crushed by the ceiling above. If the door jam falls sideways you will be cut in half by the doorway. In either case, you will be killed!
7) Never go to the stairs. The stairs have a different "moment of frequency" (they swing separately from the main part of the building). The stairs and remainder of the building continuously bump into each other until structural failure of the stairs takes place. The people who get on stairs before they fail are chopped up by the stair treads - horribly mutilated. Even if the building doesn't collapse, stay away from the stairs. The stairs are a likely part of the building to be damaged. Even if the stairs are not collapsed by the earthquake, they may collapse later when overloaded by fleeing people. They should always be checked for safety, even when the rest of the building is not damaged.
8) Get Near the Outer Walls Of Buildings Or Outside Of Them If Possible - It is much better to be near the outside of the building rather than the interior. The farther inside you are from the outside perimeter of the building the greater the probability that your escape route will be blocked.
9) People inside of their vehicles are crushed when the road above falls in an earthquake and crushes their vehicles; which is exactly what happened with the slabs between the decks of the Nimitz Freeway... The victims of the San Francisco earthquake all stayed inside of their vehicles. They were all killed. They could have easily survived by getting out and sitting or lying next to their vehicles. Everyone killed would have survived if they had been able to get out of their cars and sit or lie next to them. All the crushed cars had voids 3 feet high next to them, except for the cars that had columns fall directly across them.
10) I discovered, while crawling inside of collapsed newspaper offices and other offices with a lot of paper, that paper does not compact. Large voids are found surrounding stacks of paper.
Spread the word and save someone's life... The Entire world is experiencing natural calamities so be prepared!
"We are but angels with one wing, it takes two to fly".
In 1996 we made a film, which proved my survival methodology to be correct. The Turkish Federal Government, City of Istanbul, University of Istanbul Case Productions and ARTI cooperated to film this practical, scientific test. We collapsed a school and a home with 20 mannequins inside. Ten mannequins did "duck and cover," and ten mannequins I used in my "triangle of life" survival method. After the simulated earthquake collapse we crawled through the rubble and entered the building to film and document the results. The film, in which I practiced my survival techniques under directly observable, scientific conditions, relevant to building collapse, showed there would have been zero percent survival for those doing duck and cover. There would likely have been 100 percent survivability for people using my method of the "triangle of life." This film has been seen by millions of viewers on television in Turkey and the rest of Europe, and it was seen in the USA, Canada and Latin America on the TV program Real TV.
Cheers,
DD
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 07:36am PT
|
I woke up today to the news that radioactive steam is again rising from the power plant and that the workers had evacuated.
From what I gather, the exposure levels are such that the staff of the plant who were evacuated, as a precaustion, are such that they can safely return, to augment the minimum staff that was there to just pump water.
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 07:42am PT
|
... it [Fuku] could easily reach a 7 (out of 7) making it equal to Chernobyl if not more. It could turn out to be the worst Nuclear Reactor disaster ever. This alone shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the differences in design, reactor type, and containment between the Fuku and Chernobyl sites.
It's analogous to saying, that a solo aid climber with a huge rack and lots of experience can suffer the same or worse fate than a free soloist if both were on the upper pitches of El Cap when a severe storm blew in.
|
|
nature
climber
Mysore Karnataka India
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 07:59am PT
|
Apparently the Indian media is talking about the fallout from the explosions landing in the mainland today and tomorrow.
wtf?
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2011 - 08:25am PT
|
Again... Radiation can be measured to excruciatingly small degrees, it's all a matter of how much. As I've said before... Coal fired power plants release WAY more radioactive particles than do nukes, since most coals have radon and radon producing elements in it. If you go downwind of a coal plant, you can detect this with sensitive enough instruments. Or, if you were to take a sufficiantly sensitive intrument into your house, it would scream and go 'off scale' if you got it anywhere near a smoke detector, since most of them have amerisium in them.
And, are we talking about the mainland of India? I can't see anything in Japan being detected in India, since the wind doesn't even blow that way... It would have to go almsot all the way around the world first, and would be attenuated, decayed, and dispersed, as it went.
To put dose rate (radiation intensity) verses dose (radiation absorbed) into perspective...
Say that you get a medical chest x-ray...
In order to expose the very fast film to get the image, the film needs about 200 mR total (note that this is more than my average yearly dose [~125 mR] working at nukes). Since this exposure is made in a matter of 1-2 seconds, that means dose rates are 720 R/hr (720,000 mR/hr) for a 1 second exposure and 360 R/hr (360,000 mR/hr) for a 2 second exposure.
Point being... Being breifly exposed to even an extremely high dose rate does not equal bad. That's why the principles of ALARA (As Low As Reasonable Acheivable) include time, distance, and shielding.
Time exposed X dose rate = dose (I.e., less time equals less dose)
Distance because the inverse square law means that as the distance is doubled, the radiation intensity (dose rate) is quartered, etc...
Shielding because radiation intensity (dose rate) is attenuated by radiologically dense materials, thus less once it has passed through the shielding
This will explain much, and it's a pretty easy read...
http://www.drvxray.com/xray_exposure.htm
(Note, unites used are those used in the US.)
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!