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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 12, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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Skinny doubble ropes make total sense for multi pitch ice climbing. they make no sense at all for single pitch climbing. I use them for multi pitch rock as well simply because I hate the idea of dragging arround a heavy tag line. I have gotten totally spoiled with the option for full length raps and retrete whenever I feel the need.
The system is a pain in the butt though. easy to cluster, hard to belay properly. Still better than dragging a tag line for most of whAT I climb. If I climbed a lot of splitter cracks I would lead on a single and trail a line off the back of my harness. Doubbles suck in splitters. twice as much rope to get jammed against your feet.
I would say in the 11 years that I have been climbing on doubbles that 85% of the falls were caught on a single line. The other 15% were on both strands running through a single biner. It is nice to be able to place 2 pieces and clip one to each rope for a sketchy move but I have never actually fallen when I have rigged it that way.
Its nice in theory to speculate that you can provide a better belay by keeping red short while the leader clips blue but in real life it dosen't work that way. A Real fall in that situation would most likly resuly in a fair ammount of rope slippage while the belayer juggles fingers trying to brake the right rope. In reale life practice the belayer is more likly to feed the wrong rope and short you on the one you are trying to clip. then once you do get clipped you stand a decent chance of getting short roped on the other strand when you start climbing again.
System works great on ice where you don't keep the leader as snug as with rock. For hard rock climbing it is much easier to feed a single for fast desperate clips. Shoot out that slac and then reel it in fast when you hear the gate snap or the leader grunts, CLIPPED! If I am on an multi pitch climb and useing the half ropes if I have a line of bolts I will inform my belayer and treat the half ropes as twins and just clip em both to each draw. This is the easiest way to enshuer that you will get a decent belay and not get short roped or dropped.
I have concluded that doubbles are a PITA but I am a big chicken and I like the extra rope for retrete. I also like the rudundancy for cut protection when climbing in sharp nasty places. The price for being a chicken is that I must endure the doubble rope system on multi pitch climbs. If you are NOT a chicken then do yourself a HUGE favor and don't bother ;)
There are a few traverseing climbs arround where the doubbles really make it safe for your 2nd which is nice and a few where the doubbles really do help with the rope drag.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 12, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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'practice' using two single ropes as doubles could lead to death as the impact force would most likely exceed what your body/pro could withstand. You might as well fall onto a static rope.
 ec
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Brandon Lampley
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 12, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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ec, why?
You're taking a fall on the single rope just like you would otherwise. Black Canyon climbers sometimes climb with 9.2 singles using double rope technique.
Now using 9.8's like twins would be NUTS! and I assume that's what you mean.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Apr 12, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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I have clipped both to a single piece before I knew better.This can increase the load on the piece and stress on your body.
I love doubles and have climbed that way for 25 years.
The test weight for the half rope fall is lighter than a single rope weight,but similar to what I weigh.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 12, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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Brandon,
Yes, that's what I meant and this does happen quite often (clipping both ropes to that same piece)...the ropes aren't always alternated; that's when they become one BIG rope.
ec
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 12, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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It is perfectly fine to clip both strands of 1/2 ropes to a single piece of gear provideing that the gear is bomber and that you do not have the ropes widely seperated before or after that piece. If you plan on sepertaing the ropes dramaticly it is best to keep them seperate for the whole pitch.
The idea that your ropes will melt in half if both 1/2 ropes are clipped to a single draw or that the fall will be dramaticly harder is just a myth. Falls on 2 strands of half rope running through the same piece of gear feel just as soft and cushy as falls on a single rope. That being said you would be nuts not to take advantage of splitting the ropes if the gear is at all delicate. Additionaly if you had the ropes split by a large distance and twisted them arround each other and clipped them both to the same biner you could create a situation where you see some sheath melting. You would have to try really hard to create that type of situation. I have tryed pretty hard over the years and never managed to melt any sheaths. As long as the rope runs relativly straight and are relativle close to each other you can fall all day on them and it won't matter one tiny little bit that both strands are clipped to the same draw. I have tested this very thouroghly. I believe it was called Hang doggin BITD ;)
Contrary to pop belief the load placed on a single piece of gear clipped to a single strand of 1/2 rope is greater than the same fall on a single rope. (single rope has more material to absorbe energy than 1/2 rope) Where the 1/2 ropes come into plaY with sketch geAR situations is when you place 2 pieces of gear at roughly the same height and clip each seperatly to its own rope. This I believe does increase your safety dramaticly.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 12, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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Which leads me to questions about the diameter of half ropes and the logic or physics behind the ratings and fall safety of them
No big mystery here. Falling on just one half rope is fine – you just can’t do it as many times as you can on a single rope. “Fall rating” is a measure of how many major (almost factor 2) falls a rope will hold before it breaks. In the real world, you can fall all day on one of your half ropes. Rope technology has evolved along with everything else, and ropes have become lighter and their diameter has decreased for the same strength.
And rather than having to choose between single, double, and twin, you can now have it both ways. Petzl is selling a rope (in North America, at least) which it claims is acceptable for use as either, and although I don’t know for sure, I expect other companies are as well. Petzl’s Dragonfly is an 8.2 mm rope (availabe in both 60m and 70m lengths) rated for 6 UIAA falls. Don’t know what the fall rating is when used as a twin is – probably over 20. I’ve been using them for two seasons now and have nothing but good things to say about them. We generally use them as twins, but if a pitch wanders we split them as doubles.
As to belaying and rope management, that’s just a matter of practice. You’ll suffer through a few clusterfuks in the beginning, but it soon becomes second nature.
Biggest drawback is weight – two skinny ropes are heavier than one fat rope, and create more drag -- and at the end of a long pitch, you’ll feel the difference. On the other hand, cutting your rappels by half is pretty nice. And there’s always the fact that if one rope gets cut, you’re not gonna die (well, unless you're rappeling at the time).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 12, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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Gohst, All 1/2 ropes are rated as twins. Read the directions next time you buy a new set. They even have little pictures that show it is OK. what they don't want you to do is seperate the ropes by a several meters and then stuff them both back through the same biner as this could cause the ropes to rub against each other at diferent speeds durring a fall possibly causeing heat damage to the ropes.
The big deal with the new Petzle and Sterling ropes is that they are rated as Doubbles, Twins and SINGLE.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 12, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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tradmanclimbs,
...of course, I was referring to the first post of using two single ropes in this manner...much different results than using halfs or twins...
ec
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 12, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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tradmanclimbs: My bad. That's what I meant to say (as evidenced by the six-fall rating).
I'll go back and correct my post.
Thanks
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 12, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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No worries... Its good to bring this stuff up as there seems to be a bit of myth associated with the doubble rope system. One of the biggest myths is that single strand of 1/2 rope has a lower impact force than a normal single rope. According to Sterling ropes this is NOT TRUE. A single rope has a lower impact force than a 1/2 rope because there is more material in the single rope to absorb energy. The skinny 1/2 rope can not dissapate as much energy and therfore transfers that energy to the pro. belay device and falling climber.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Apr 12, 2009 - 06:20pm PT
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The impact forces are similar.The melting is a myth.You don't clip them both to one piece because it increases the impact force felt by both the climber and the piece.That's not a myth.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 12, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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Falls on 2 strands of half rope running through the same piece of gear feel just as soft and cushy as falls on a single rope
As someone who took repeated 50-footers onto a pair of half ropes running as twins (I had to do it. My country's future was at stake. Just ask Tami) (Well, that and there was a fairly large paycheck involved) I can confirm that you're not gonna die if you do this. I would say it was higher impact than a similar fall on a fat single, but I didn't get broken in half or anything.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Apr 12, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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Right,and since the impact force is higher,and the protection experiences twice the impact force,it's not adviseable to clip them both.Most of the time it's not an issue because people tend to use doubles,or halfs,as intended,and split them,so what actually takes place is imperfect equalization,even when you get wiggy and clip them both to that piece at the crux.
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Francis
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Cool all very informative, thank you
...I just went on to the Uiaa sight and consulted their drop tests... they have them in written form and in picture form.
I must have a thick scull because I still cannot figure out why they would drop a lighter weight for the half ropes. You know I am going to the source and email them and see if I can get an answer from the horses mouth.
I will let you all know if I find anything of interest.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 12, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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They use a lighter weight because if they used the heavier weight the rope would break too easily. I do a lot of logging with old climbing rope and skinny rope works but it breaks a LOT easier than fat rope.
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Pakdong
climber
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Apr 13, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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not that I have any design to go try it....what would be the problem, other than edge resistence etc..., of climbing on a single half rope?...say a 8.2mm. Since doubles are set up to hold falls on a single stand at a time, why not just climb on a single stand? If the fall factor isn't high, is there much issue? I guess that leads to the question..what exactly is a "Single Rope"
WBraun.... what circumstances did you climb a single 8.8mm for all that time?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Light
Don't fall though ....
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 13, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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I believe a lower weight is used to test a double rope because you will never take a factor 2 fall on one double--if you're in a factor 2 fall situation, you will fall on both doubles. So singles need to be able to withstand a more severe fall, even though many falls in a double system will be caught on just one rope. Hopefully no one is taking many > factor 1 falls on any rope system.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 13, 2009 - 10:27am PT
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Useing a 1/2 rope as a single has its benefits and risks. Lots of folks do it for alpine climbing where falls are rare and weight is a huge issue. Skinny ropes are NOT as durrable as fat ropes. If you use your 1/2 rope as a single you could toast the thing pretty quickly. Once the skinny rope breaks down the impact forces will be even higher than they allready are which is higher than a single rope anyways. Ropes do break and cut easier when they are broken down. Definatly NOT recomended in any situation where you would be doing a lot of falling and ANY lowering. lowering toasts your rope way fast .
Even the skinny expensive single ropes wear out quickly from lowering and projecting. For sport cragging where weight is not an issue its silly to use super light expensive skinny singles. A nice inexpensive 10.2 will last longer and work just fine. If you can't carry an extra 16 oz of rope up to Wiamea with your 12 draws then I suppose you will have to cough up the dough for that expensive skinny single.
Stuff yer pack with with 14 ice screws, 3 ice tools, crampons, medium rock rack, bunch of pins, 8 screamers and a bunch of slings, water,food , 3 pairs of gloves etc.etc,etc, and that expensive skinny single starts to make a lot of sense..
Its got to be kind of nuty to use super skinny rope on walls. fatter ropes are stronger, last longer and offer more cut resistance.
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