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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 12, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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Thanks for the post and photos Mark.
I believe I have the same book right on my coffee table - Self Rescue by David J. Fasulo. Great book to have, easy to understand and use.
It's a daily reader for me right now, I just started volunteering with a SAR team so I have been reviewing the book a lot.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 12, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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IMO, piece missed here is that practicing self rescue is *more* important for weekend warriors, who are more apt to get themselves into trouble. Speaking from experience btw, and quite happy I had practiced things before shattering an ankle on multipitch with an inexperienced partner. Could have gone badly, but instead was just unpleasant.
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Beautiful_Corn
Big Wall climber
Brooklyn Park, MD
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Aug 12, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
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My wife and I (weekend warriors) were forced to put some self rescue theory into practice today. Everything turned out fine and we managed to even walk away with all our gear but we're settling in tonight with some beers and some more practice because we could have done a better job and rescued ourselves much faster.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Aug 12, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
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rgold: Thanks for all of the helpful references -- glad I'm not the only one with a penchant for finding greater comfort in multiple sources. I picked up one, but wasn't sure where to turn next, so...THANKS!
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wivanoff
Trad climber
CT
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Aug 12, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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Fasulo has re-written "Self-Rescue"
http://www.amazon.com/Self-Rescue-2nd-How-Climb-Series/dp/0762755334/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344819350&sr=8-1&keywords=self+rescue
In the 2nd (current) edition, he says that Marc Chauvin (Chauvin Guides) told him that the "transition" shown on the Chauvin website is second generation and current thinking is more of a direct method of going to self-rescue rather than going to the baseline first. If so, I thought by now the Chauvin site would be updated.
Still, I think it's good to know (and practice) several different methods and decide what to do based on the situation you're in.
Regarding harness hang and using the terrain to your advantage, I did like this comment in Fasulo's book: "expert climbers use terrain; beginning climbers tie fancy knots and load systems".
I think he did a good job with the second edition except with respect to raising systems. In my mind, he presents them as easier to improvise and use in the field that they are in reality.
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Some Random Guy
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Aug 12, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
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+1 for those books.....taught me a lot and allowed me to save my own ass a few times
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 13, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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Why bother reading a book?
Just dial 911
:-)
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Some Random Guy
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Aug 13, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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^ true true...might as well take advantage of this aac rescue insurance i got. free heli ride!
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Aug 13, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
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Just picked up the falcon press 2nd edition...so far so good.
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yeahman
Mountain climber
Montana
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Aug 13, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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The review linked in rgold's post refers to the old 1996 edition of the Falcon book, not the 2nd edition that came out in 2011. The new edition includes a chapter that covers practice routines for specific rescue situations.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Aug 13, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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when big wall climbers with so much experience fail to do self-rescue, how could others do rescue by reading a book ?
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 13, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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I know Dave very well, and he always does a thorough job on his subjects. His book and the update are excellent resources, and the diagrams are very helpful for those who need to follow pictures. He is a teacher by trade, and it shows in his presentation.
The state of the art is always evolving. It is always good to know how to perform what you need to do with a minimum of non-fancy gear. For weekend warriors, a self rescue workshop is nice, and then practice with your partner before the big trip of the year. The weaker partner should be able to execute these skills, too. The leader can be the person injured after a fall or in the hole on a glacier.
While you will find that many of the concepts of self-rescue will translate over to mountain rescue or fire rescue, you will find differences in what constitutes acceptable practices. I've been with an MRA team for 14 years, and some of the techniques and tools are slowly becoming more uniform. However, they have legitimate liability concerns about maintaining acceptable system safety factors and operating procedures, especially if the team members don't all have a strong climbing/rope background. The munter mule combination is not used by many MRA teams (at least in my region)- they use radium release hitches (an upgrade from the mariners a few years ago) tied off with half hitches and overhands. The concept is the same - a releasable tie-off that you can lower and transfer tension. Expect a jaundiced look at your gear as way too flimsy and much beefier and expensive equipment. The most common anchors will be different, and expect quite a meltdown if you girth hitch instead of basket hitch a point. For serious high angle scenarios, they will prefer two rope systems, and this has implications for the preferences in building SRENE anchors. MRA teams love their prussiks, and many are very slowly beginning to adopt belaying practices which incorporate "plaquettes" or dual tensioned lines.
I yearn for a little more consistency and enlightenment between MRA and AMGA (yet another hierarchy of preferred skills). Learning all you can about any system - especially understanding how it is engineered and why it is engineered in a particular way - will help you. If my team needs something done quickly and differently, it is the climbers that possess these rope techniques skills that can solve the problem while mitigating the risk.
Harness hang/suspension trauma - be careful when you review discussions of those. Much of the controversy revolves around how to treat them after getting to a platform. Today, it appears that the "treat like any other trauma" approach is superior to those that wanted to modify the protocol for the suspension element. But moving patients quickly can not take precedence over the system safety. With sufficient resources, you can quickly get them off rope, especially with an organized effort that recognizes the medical care required. Like all other situations, a simple procedure is not best for all situations. Head traumas should not be put into a horizontal position if at all possible, etc....
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dfclimb
climber
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Aug 13, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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Speaking of self-rescue. I watched a rescue off El Cap last week of two guys trying to rappel the Nose. Apparently, the first person rappeling was off route and stranded himself just above the great roof. Apparently, he did not know how to ascend a fixed rope?!?! Therefore, he became stranded and YOSAR raised his partner to the top of El Cap and lowered the lower climber all the way to the base (due to concerns with hanging in his harness for so long). Ascending a fixed rope seems like a basic self-rescue skill if attempting to rappel El Cap...
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 13, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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Seamstress, thanks very much for your post. I'm only training to Tech II at this time, but I have been keeping an eye on the vertical rescue team that is forming, and helping them out a bit here and there.
I'd like to see some cohesion between the different styles as well..it's difficult to break the AMGA habit and learn another.
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generationfourth
Trad climber
Arizona
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Aug 13, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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I have the Self Rescue book with the red cover (Tyson/Loomis). I find it very informative and this thread reminds me that I need to go through and practice the methods in it again. There are is a lot of sound advice that made me say "ooooh that's what I should've done!" There is good methods for "sh#t-has-hit-the-fan" situations, and an equal amount of material dedicated to minor troubles like: second can't make it up the pitch, rope stuck, etc.
I've been trying to get my partners to get involved in learning and practicing because like others have said– the knowledge is useless if you're the one injured and your partner is not up to speed. Sadly some of my partners are too proud and/or have ego issues when it comes to self-rescue...
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Aug 13, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
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About 6 months ago I first read in RR's "Basic Rockcraft" that you should practice falling. Let's just say that it took several weeks before my brain decided it was willing to ponder this. But ponder it I did.
I like to laugh at myself, so this is something that provides grand opportunity. I've gone off course, snowballed, skidded, flipped and practically snapped every singe one of my limbs right off while downhill skiing, so why should climbing up (or down) be any different, from an experience perspective, that is?
It's in the things that go wrong and then are righted again that we develop skill and mastery. So, naturally, I became obsessed with knots. ;D Luckily, that lasted all of about 5, maybe 10 pages, before I decided I needed to figure out WHY all of these variations were necessary.
I have to say that it's really in all of the different stories and conversations being shared here that I've been able to learn the most, including, of course, recommended reading (and all of the different opinions that come with a person taking a stand on this or that!). So...again, my thanks.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 13, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
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Holy frig! ^^ THAT ^^ is an amazing story! What a pair of idiots. Talk about being in deep way way way over your head. Were this not Yosemite Valley where rescuers are available for free with a free 911 call, they would likely be dead.
You rappel with three ropes, lose one right off the bat and end up cutting it, then carry on with only two. And you rappel down a rope with NO ascenders?! And you don't even have the know-how or ability to prusik a fixed rope?
If feel angry about this. It makes the rest of us look bad, and endangers access for the rest of us who have actually made the effort to learn the very basics of how to descend and ascend a fixed rope. Which is no small effort, but rather a lifetime of learning.
You do this sort of thing without learning it properly [they weren't even CLOSE] and you will end up with a very short lifetime.
One wonders, of course, if it was these guys:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1886785&tn=0&mr=0
He writes,
"I will be in Yosemite for a day or two in the next few weeks."
If so, dude, you owe us all a HUGE explanation and perhaps even an apology.
What were you thinking?!
Wankers.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Aug 13, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
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Why bother reading a book?
Just dial 911
:-)
Thanks Werner! I'll try that. NOT!!!
The last thing I want is for someone to put their ass on the line to rescue my ass.
I sure do appreciate all that the gals and guys in SAR do. Rock on SAR folks!
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