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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 29, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
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Ive worked with polar bear concerns for well over a decade
Dude, so far you've shown your polar bear expertise by posting cartoon graphs from denialist blogs and lots of arm-waving, like about polar bears surviving higher CO2, while confusing Foxe Basin with Western Hudson Bay and showing you don't know strait from straight.
I posted some abstracts from recent research, but saw no indication you read those -- your response was the cartoon graphs, making that always witty argument called "But...but...but...ALGORE!"
Some populations are declining, some aren't, and some are unknown. More will be in trouble if sea ice keeps declining, because hunting on the ice is their livelihood. They also face serious threats from contamination, because as long-lived apex predators atop one of the planet's lengthiest food chains, they bioconcentrate and bioaccumulate some bad things. Finally there are hunting pressures, exacerbated if food scarcity drives them into more contact with humans.
As a polar bear expert you understand all that but forgot to say it, right?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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May 29, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
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Chef im going to die.FACT
The posturing you have presented.NOT FACT.
I am just a lowly carpenter with an age old geology education.I do not claim to know it all,never have . I have dilligently kept abreast of GW science since 78.
Denial has held up ,policy,progression and funding of most solutions. Hence my fierce problem with your loud 3%.
If this were a true democracy as you freedom fighters want,and WE all had a vote to accept/decline progession or regression of this very topic,whos ass do you think would be mutated.
Lunch is over,back to cutting rafters.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 29, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
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You don't know that At all Ron.
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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I'm a stupid American just the same.
Bruce ... Just fix it.
Quit wasting your time arguing.
The bottom line the climate is fuked up.
We fuked it up.
There's no one else to blame for fuking it up when we pollute the whole planet with all this unnecessary crap we "think" we really need.
We're all fuk ups .....
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 29, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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Chiloe,, NO bears are in danger of ice leaving. They WILL simply evolve with it.
Let's see if you even understand evolution. How fast is sea ice area declining? How fast do species evolve?
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dirtbag
climber
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May 29, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
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You're making sh#t up Ron.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 29, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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hi guys
same old?
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dirtbag
climber
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May 29, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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"Prove it"? It's not my job to prove anything. He's the one make the claim; let's see some data.
I know lack of data doesn't bother you, tho.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 29, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
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Besides, data would probably involve numbers and sh#t, and anyway, chief ignoramus, you can't be bothered with Math. Math, learning and sh#t gets in the way of your opinions.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 29, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
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Future Retreat of Arctic Sea Ice Will Lower Polar Bear Populations and Limit Their Distribution
Future reduction of sea ice in the Arctic could result in a loss of 2/3 of the world's polar bear population within 50 years according to a series of studies released today by the U.S. Geological Survey.
Last December, Secretary of the Interior Dirk Kempthorne announced that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) was proposing to list the polar bear as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Ac http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1773
**Climate change threatens polar bear populations: a stochastic demographic analysis
The polar bear (Ursus maritimus) depends on sea ice for feeding, breeding, and movement. Significant reductions in Arctic sea ice are forecast to continue because of climate warming. We evaluated the impacts of climate change on polar bears in the southern Beaufort Sea by means of a demographic analysis, combining deterministic, stochastic, environment-dependent matrix population models with forecasts of future sea ice conditions from IPCC general circulation models (GCMs). The matrix population models classified individuals by age and breeding status; mothers and dependent cubs were treated as units. Parameter estimates were obtained from a capture–recapture study conducted from 2001 to 2006. Candidate statistical models allowed vital rates to vary with time and as functions of a sea ice covariate
Read More: http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/09-1641.1
**Arctic Bears
The Melting Arctic's Impact on Its Ecosystem
The polar bear has become the poster child of global warming, but there’s more to the Arctic than ice and polar bears. Beyond these two famous and prominent features of the Arctic environment, there is an entire intricate ecosystem of wildlife and plant life that will be profoundly affected by a prolonged warming trend in the Arctic.
There’s no doubt the Arctic is warming. In fact, this extreme region has warmed faster than any other on earth, with the Arctic temperature increasing three to five times faster than the Earth as a whole over the past 100 years. Climate models predict that the Arctic will become an additional 7 to 12 degrees Fahrenheit warmer during the next century.
Experts predict these rising temperatures are likely to cause the melting of at least half the Arctic sea ice by the end of the century. Melting ice is expected to lead to even higher Arctic temperatures as bright white ice plays a significant role in reflecting the sun’s radiation. As ice melts, more of the dark ocean and land are exposed to absorb the radiation, thus further warming the climate. Research has found that over a major portion of the ice-covered Arctic Ocean, sea ice is 40 percent thinner than it used to be. And some climate models predict that by 2070, there may be no summer ice cover in the Arctic at all.
The disappearance of sea ice is a particularly dire threat to the polar bear, a super specialist in the Arctic environment. Polar bears rely on the ice to hunt seals, their main food source, and also to rest between hunts out on the ice. Trapped, drowning and starving bears have become such a concern that in September 2007, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) released a series of studies that led its scientists to conclude that “future reduction of sea ice in the Arctic could result in a loss of two-thirds of the world’s polar bear population within 50 years.” As sad as such a fate for this majestic creature would be, the consequences would extend far beyond the bear. A polar bear decline could trigger what biologists call a “trophic cascade,” or a complete uncoupling of the Arctic food chain. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/arctic-bears/the-melting-arctics-impact-on-its-ecosystem/780/
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 29, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
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Ron,
please refute, denigrate, and destroy the quality of the climate change effecting the polar bears in my three above studies and decisions
in addition, please take down the education and credibility of the people involved
then, show you are man enough to admit when you are wrong, just once
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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May 29, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
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So let's hear it Chief and Ron or are you both too scared to let your right wing buddies know the truth (you do everything that us eco-warriors do)!! Don't be ashamed for conserving our planet when you can!! It feels good to be alive and Chief if your truly connected to mother nature you don't harm her (I know you don't intend to)...leave your right wing lac-o-nuts behind and fully embrace the natural world. Mother Nature loves you both.
Lets have the truth about these facts as stated below...........
May 28, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
It isn't psych analysis Ron it is a fact. I would like you and the Chief to inform me if I am wrong;
You both hunt---and try to use as much of the animal as possible--that's called COSERVATION
You both RECYCLE, buy used items, and use what you have purchased new until it is worn out--nothing goes to waste in your houses.
You both leave no trace when out in the wilderness and often pick up the trash others have left there.
You both burn wood for heating at least some of the time and probably for cooking as well (burning wood is carbon neutral).
You both grow at least some of your food or gather it from the local woods.
You both would kick the sh#t out of any punks spray painting rocks, destroying a Joshua Tree, or abusing animals for pleasure.
I believe what I have posted above are FACTS!!
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 29, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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Witness the transition from coal that Base and his industry have graciously provided,along with 100,000's good paying jobs. Combine that with the nearly foolproof latest generations of nuclear reactors, if placed in seismically stable areas instead of political jurisdictions.Now, the rabid enviros will resist with all their might transition to these massively CO2 reducing technologies-why? Maybe because it would partially expose the big lie underpinning their religion. Now back to the chalkboard with you, refute the ignorance.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 29, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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Zzzzz...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 29, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
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Ron, seriously, take Ed's suggestions
Go back and read the paper again, and work through the numerical arguments... you'd have a much more nuanced understanding of polar bear populations in the Davis Strait.
Maybe Chiloe can recommend a text on statistical methods used in population dynamics studies that would allow you to brush up on your math skillz...
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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May 29, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
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Ron I'm still keying his Jaguar if it shows up in Hidden Valley...so you heat with electricity how about cooking and all the other questions I asked??? Are you afraid to show you are a eco-warrior?
Werner just take it easy and stop waving the f--ing gun around...after that do what Walter tells Donny to do repeatedly...
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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May 29, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
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Guess what,, you dont know Rick Sumner form a fence post.. Rick deals with more environmental BS in his week up there in AK than youve probably ever delt with. He has a home FAR up in a mtn canyon in the Pah rah range of Kneevader. Has solar heated rooms, wood stove and the whole gambit.
AND,, he was climbing wild shyt before you were born. Introduced the likes of Paul Crawford to Multi pitch climbing, and wrote the FIRST comprehensive climbing guide for the greater tahoe region. Then followed that one by another two years later. Between him, Bill Todd, Greg Dexter, John Taylor, Richard Harrison, Jay Smith and many others - they put up the most extreme routes there are around here. And He opened up the region with those historically monumental guides.
That has nothing whatsoever to do with science.
Also, it snowed here in NH last weekend. The globe can't be warming if it snowed this late in the season, right?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 29, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
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Ron A, of course you read those words in the report... but you didn't understand what the quantitative basis of those words meant...
...and in fact, they show a recent declining population, with concurrence from the locals...
maybe you missed that...
you did not actually "read" those studies did you Ron
instead, you ask an incredibly simplistic question that a high school kid could answer about the 10,000 year cyclical ice ages throughout earth's history and CO2
the ISSUE, Ron, is NOT about fuking polar bears, it is about the out of sequence rapid earth warming that is occurring NOW
you don't read a damn thing, you just burp out whatever the "opposite" truth is by consensus, doesn't matter what thread, just take the opposite position, as if you are a child crying out of attention, and disregard all the efforts people make to correct your flat wrong conclusions
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Degaine
climber
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May 29, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
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The Chief wrote:
80-100 years is "relatively quickly"? Impressive.
Lead gasoline was invented and introduced in 1921, researchers in labs at Yale (or some Ivy League school) studied and proved that lead was harmful in 1924/25. Lead gasoline was banned in the US in the mid-eighties.
Not sure where you got the 80-100 years from. And I was right, it was industry that pushed to keep the harmful substance in gasoline for financial gain.
The Chief wrote:
The Goodness of the Universe will infinitely prevail.
The universe is neither good nor bad, it just is. In addition, it doesn't give a crap about you or me. The notion of prevailing is an entirely human concept.
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