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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 16, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
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What's the State done since the Feather River Project? Besides double the population?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 16, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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What's the State done since the Feather River Project? Besides double the population?
each major moment in cali water history emerged out of a crisiss. lux v. haggin and the california doctrine; the wright act; the major municipal projects, esp hetch-hetchy and ladwp; the newlands reclamation act and the cvp; and then the state water project.
the swp collapsed in the middle-seventies for two different reasons. first, we'd picked all the low-hanging fruit. the most practical and least-expensive reservoir sites had band built, and the last of them, the new melones addition, turned out to be a nightmare costing jillions in oveer-runs and maintenance.
then cali voters-- you prolly one of them--decide that govt was too big and passed prop 13 casting the state into immediate financial crisis. the last big swp project, the kern water bank, had cost 80 millions but wasnt quite completed.
so the state, now in fiscal crisis, basically gifted the kern water bank it to paramount farms, a private corporation now the world's largest almond grower.
as best i can tell, you're furious that prop 13 ended the last big water project, and you want another big water project to move on all the expansion that was too costly for us to puruse last time.
and apparently, you want us to do this so that we can continue to subsidize almond exports to china.
i am touched by your devotion to the plight of the emerging chinese middle-class.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
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Chaz seems to be overlooking a little fact...
34 Jerry Brown January 6, 1975 January 3, 1983 Democratic
35 George Deukmejian January 3, 1983 January 7, 1991 Republican
36 Pete Wilson January 7, 1991 January 4, 1999 Republican
37 Gray Davis January 4, 1999 November 17, 2003 Democratic
38 Arnold Schwarzenegger November 17, 2003 January 3, 2011 Republican
39 Jerry Brown January 3, 2011 Incumbent Democratic
the water issue cannot be blamed on Jerry Brown... and it is much older than the 1970s
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 16, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
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OK, Mr Kos, it's only been thirty years!
I remember watching its progress from Taquitz.
EDIT:
Dr Hartouni,
Wilson and Schwartznegger presided over their own dry stretches, and didn't do anything either.
And Davis was the one, who instead of simply generating more electricity ( like they were going to have to anyway, and did ), wanted everyone to turn off their Christmas Lights at Christmastime.
I don't see how anyone can blame one party over another. They're both in on it. One's the Bag Man. The other one drives the Getaway Car.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 16, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
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At some point it's diminishing returns Chaz. You run out of water to damn (dam LOL, see that?). Really. However, that said, I too, find it curious that Cali can fund a multi-billion dollar bullet train (they don't need and can't afford to annually fund) but can't afford to buy up some of the soon to be out of business farmers water rights.
Sympathies to the farmers.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 16, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
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However, that said, I too, find it curious that Cali can fund a multi-billion dollar bullet train (they don't need and can't afford to annually fund) but can't afford to buy up some of the soon to be out of business farmers water rights.
Sympathies to the farmers.
california voters are idiots. bullet train! stem cell research! three strikes! next we'll have more dams. each one a direct product of the proposition system after failing in which used to be constitutional representational government.
i have a lot of sympathy for the small ranchers, especially, and the small farmers and viticulturists who've been trying to be responsible.
i have remarkably little sympathy for the resnicks and the mega-dairies, and the almond barons. one of the reasons this is so tragic is that the fallout is going to come down hardest-- is coming down hardest --on many of the most responsible folks. we're going to end up with more consolidation, bailouts for the biggest connected folks, more feed lot beef, and a swathe of destruction among the exact landscapes and communities that we really ought to be building up.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 17, 2014 - 08:00am PT
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i haven't read yesterday's decision in the legal battle up in siskiyou, but this summary suggests that it could be a major step toward groundwater regulation.
http://www.capradio.org/28181
apparently the ruling held that "public trust doctrine" applied to groundwater pumping at least as it affects riparian flow. that would be a potentially big event, but it depends on the details of the ruling.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 17, 2014 - 08:19am PT
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No word on appeal, seems inevitable?
i haven't heard, and i don't think i know anyone who worked this case.
nationally, there's no question about the constitutionality of regulating groundwater-- we're the only state that doesn't do it.
cali water law, though, is a special cluster because it mixes two philosophically opposed doctrines: riparian rights and prior appropriation. so each of these decisions risks becominbg another layer of cluster on top of the last century of cluster.
the summary seems pretty confident, but the devil will be in the details. was hoping someone here might've worked this one.
edit--
found it
http://www.envirolaw.org/documents/ScottOrderonCrossMotions.pdf
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 17, 2014 - 08:27am PT
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yeah, as i expected, the key phrase here is this:
the court concludes the public trust doctrine protects navigable
waterways from harm caused by groundwater extraction
that limits the range of application, so it's probably not as broad as the story summary suggested. but still a big deal.
i can imagine lots of problems, since it basically orders counties to do the regulating, and the counties have no money and in most cases, no inclination. the immediate outcome is likely to be a raft of more suits.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jul 17, 2014 - 08:53am PT
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My take on the drought:
If you have to ask then a drought is happening.
I got a rule during constant drought that we have been living in for the last decade (I can care less what the "official - We are in a drought" date was, but if feels like my entire life has been about conserving water due to drought).
In my world I don't see requests to conserve water to be a bad thing... As a human and as part of being in a society I know that having access to fresh drinking water is important...
So I do my best to not waste water. I try to use as little as possible and I get by. When I turn off the spigot I don't feel that I am being slighted, or that I am doing something against my will, or that I have lost any personal freedoms.
Unfortunately, being part of this society I know I cannot ask my fellow Americans to minimize their water use due to the fact that I am surrounded by Self-Important, self-righteous Americans who think that freedom is having the ability to yell their opinion unnecessarily at full volume, spew foul sh#t into the air and generally burn anything at will... because.... it's their right?
What ever happened to doing the right thing?
What ever happened to civic duty?
What ever happened to not behaving like a virus...?
They are Americans and they are human.
But I am a part of this society, therefore I am American and I am human.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 17, 2014 - 08:56am PT
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"Navigable" water ways can often cover a lot of history. IIR back east it included pre-Colombian use too. But perhaps not an issue in California history.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 17, 2014 - 09:03am PT
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in cali, "navigable" means that a lake, river or stream can support pleasure boating for at least part of the year.
in the national audobon decision on mono lake, ladwp diversion of seasonal feeder streams was limited because those streams impacted the navigable body of mono lake. seems to have been the same thing here-- the court didnt rule that public trust applies to groundwater, only that in this case, groundwater pumping was harming the navigable body to which the doctrine does apply.
i expect this 'll go to the cali sc, but i doubt the sc would overturn on the basis of doctrine-- there might be other technical problems with the decision that i'm not competent to opine about.
but i expect there'll be a slew of lawsuits many of which will push at the definitional boundary for "navigable." i expect it'll be a mess, since we seem to know remarkably little about how water flows beneath the surface.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 09:21am PT
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Mouse from Merced, interesting diagram, but what about odor issues.
Of course, now that Jennie and I live in the sticks, hanging laundry with a curious cow looking over the hedge, and coming back from our weekly jaunt in Wexford town, passing by the manure plant, just put a clothes pin on your nose, I thought.
Chaz, I see you want to blame Brown for what happened some years ago and now. Nice try, but it does not wash in my eyes.
IMO, it has been a collective issue, regardless of political parties, that have failed to address the issue, and many Californians who think they are "here in Ireland" (meaning lots of water), which, believe it or not, does have some water issues.
I will write further about the water politics here in Ireland. But, the water politics in California are "miles ahead/behind" (take your pick) of solving the Golden State's hydrological problems. Oops, a big word there but I did study some hydrology courses at Columbia College back in the mid-1970s, when the Stan, Tuolumne and other rivers were flowing a bit, eh, shall we say, better.
This is not about the current or indeed previous governors, as such, this should be a collective effort - by politicians, scientists, administrators, agriculture, urban/suburban/rural users.
I know that sounds, uh, well - naive, simple, understatement, overstatement, whatever…
So Chaz, people of your ilk want to blame Brown. That is your choice. But you must know that it is not so simple to point a finger at a man who you do not agree with ideologically. What did other governors do? How proactive were they in addressing what is a long-running natural history issue in California?
Answers please, in a polite manner.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 17, 2014 - 09:52am PT
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On that chart that Ed posted above, why does SLO county come in so high on water usage/population? There's wineries there, but what else is such a big water draw? I didn't think that was that big an agricultural area.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 17, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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hey there say, jingy... you just reminded me of stuff my mom has taught me... in fact, she and i had just talked about some of this recently... she was from ohio and moved out to calif in the mid? 60's...
as to your quote:
I got a rule during constant drought that we have been living in for the last decade (I can care less what the "official - We are in a drought" date was, but if feels like my entire life has been about conserving water due to drought).
In my world I don't see requests to conserve water to be a bad thing... As a human and as part of being in a society I know that having access to fresh drinking water is important...
So I do my best to not waste water. I try to use as little as possible and I get by. When I turn off the spigot I don't feel that I am being slighted, or that I am doing something against my will, or that I have lost any personal freedoms.
this reminds me what my mom always says to me...
she, even when not in the 'worried' drought times (seems drought-word hangs around calif a lot, if you grew up there, long enough) she was a
conscientious 'watch the water'...
she turned her yard into a more natural state, to accommodate this...
her sister, later in life (in ohio) lived with a well, and had to watch her water use, and--it is a good practice for anyone to 'go through'...
thanks for sharing... we forget what most of the world has to do, as to water... a very precious precious thing...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 17, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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why does SLO county come in so high on water usage/population?
huge producer of grapes, but also some vegetable row crops and lots of graze/alfalfa
slo is a really big ag region, which is why the college is such an aggie school.
it's also why that brewpub continues to be one of the most reliable booking venues for decent country music acts like jackson taylor.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 17, 2014 - 10:05am PT
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could be that Ed screwed up the FIPS county codes... he'll check again...
that's correct SLO...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 17, 2014 - 10:46am PT
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Patrick, there is breakdown going on in these "hippie turd piles" no matter what. It is dealt with by using "negative air pressure" created by the vent stack, and by insuring that the decomposing agent is aerobic bacteria, not anaerobic bacteria.
Read this fascinating treatise next time you sit on the throne...
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/05/31/composting-toilets-not-gross-at-all/
I bet they got one up at "TP Resort."
I haven't a Clue as to whether they actually do, but it might be the basis for a cool new board game, Loo: Colonel Mustard, in the compost yurt, with a used guidebook page.
When things go to sh!t, just laughing about it makes you feel better sometimes.
Agree or not about any of the drought-related issues, we are still a "society" and we all sink or swim based on cooperation, not profiteering.
And the heat goes on...same as it ever was--water flowing underground...but not near as much of it as before...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 17, 2014 - 11:09am PT
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It is idiotic to require 20% reduction across the board. Current usage should not be the baseline.
These fines are just political gimmicks. If anyone really wants to provide economic incentives, then make everyone pay the same price for water.
Having everyone pay the same price for water is no disincentive to the waste of water....it is merely a mechanism for the lower and middle class to subsidize the rich, who have larger properties, with lusher landscapes, bigger pools, more water features.
When I lived in Sacto, there was no metering of water, and everyone payed the same, and the water use was through the ceiling. Still is.
In my mind, the incentive should have to do with rates: rates what they are now for 20% less/gallon. for the next 100%, 2X, for the next 100% 5X, for the next 100%, 10X.
No impact on those who save. Huge impact on those who waste, and will finance many of the things needed.
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