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dirtbag
climber
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For once I find myself agreeing with my conservative friends here.
It is unrealistic to expect a state such as Israel to sit back forever while another state hostile to its very existence continues to lob missiles. Someone earlier wondered what the U.S. would do if the goverment of Mexico continued to fire missiles from Tijuana. I think that's a fair analogy. And while I am far from an Israel apologist, and generally wish pox on both houses, let's not lose sight of the fact that Hamas is a bunch of as#@&%es, even to their own people: so why give them a pass on this? They deserve the lion's share of the blame for the tragic consequences of the past few weeks.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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You know I must admit that I did exaggerate in an earlier post. The one about my encounter with a unmarked vehicle. I said, because I had climbed all the big bad Black Canyon routes, I didn't intimidate easily. And that was a stretch. Truth is I only climbed some of the earliest ascents of most of the major wall routes of the day. There are more new routes there now than there were routes in total when we were there. So I suppose I am still intimidate-able.
Everything else I said was true. I thought about that encounter a lot. Running it over and over in my mind looking for further clues. On further retrospect I find it probable these "gentlemen" were not Mossad. They were not likely "professionals". But rather self proclaimed "para"professionals. They were awkward and unsure as if caught at unawares and unprepared. They scared too easily. Street punks, drug dealers and drunken collegians don't tend to back down when the numerical advantage is in their court. And the pros don't slip information and then become intimidated. These guys were plainly not prepared to "act" and so withdrew. There is a "smell" peculiar to those who spend a lot of time shooting and cleaning fire arms particularly when the meticulously maintained weapon is also in close proximity.
This sedan smelled of that. I believe I caught them off guard by doing something unlike observed patterns. Not knowing what else to do they made contact in an crude attempt at intimidation. As my artist's eye and attention to details replays I see their rumpled jackets as hastily employed cover for what I believe were guns being cleaned in their laps. They had clearly been watching the house from this car parked across and down the street. The strong winds of Boulder had just previously dismantled the fence in the back yard laying the neighborhood open for the wanderlust of a dog's nose. So unlike my previous and usual pattern that night I was out walking the dog. As to my dog she is the sweetest, most adorable and compassionate creature on four legs. UNLESS! unless she senses a threat to her pack. There have been a few occasions where I have seen her "dark" side and I find my self glad I am the Alpha of her pack. That night she was sensing something she did not like at all. Perhaps her actions dissuaded them from further action. They just went around the corner re-parked and watched me and the dog disappear into the park. They were gone when I returned 20 minutes later. And I haven't seen that car with the muddy plates in the neighborhood since. The truth is they were parked watching my neighborhood. I remember clearly their lights and engine coming on behind me as I turned towards the park and away from them. Their motivations for such careful vigilance are assumable but unclear. They did know my wife's and at least one of my kid's names. They "slipped" with this knowledge. Something a "pro" would be unlikely to do. That is where I stopped them. My family is OFF LIMITS! Even though their vehicle had the unmistakable air of threat I could not allow them to tacitly threaten my family's well being. Could any of you? Do you think the local authorities would take this seriously without "proof" of harm?
They were there! Why were the there? My take is that they were vigilante wannabes on a stakeout. Where did they come from?
It would been natural for anyone of you to ask why us? I have already explained that My wife's Palestinian heritage and her active anti war Quaker associations are alone enough to put us on the radar as "subjects of interest". The prominence of her family is a double edged sword. I believe it has kept us in a "look but don't touch" status but I am also sure it has put us in the "under a microscope" category. Add in my past travels through troubled lands and we become a giant curiosity. When attending anti war or pro Palestinian events our pictures have been taken with more facial recognition technology than Paris Hilton. I know only to well whn I am being followed home or paid too much attention to. Paranoid? When passing through the gauntlet of irrationally rabid Arab loathing pro Israelis that line the entrance to every event we encounter more than hate filled taunts and mindless accusations. More than the detirus and bodily fluids sometimes hurled our way. We encounter those who address us hatefully by name. We are not unknown. We are not hidden. We are not immune from being targeted for if nothing else an attempt to silence our dissent. You may choose not to believe me. But my point is that these things are happening here and now, They are happening to honest well meaning Americans who choose to "SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER". My wife has been a target of anti Arab hate and rhetoric her whole life. She is innocent of wrong doing but made to feel the guilt of responsibility by a society willingly blinding it's self to the reality of human suffering.
"NEVER AGAIN" should not apply solely to Jews!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Well Philo, if they whack you, then we'll know. Just to help a little, stay away from your computer. Those Mossad fellows are clever and might slip a little something in the works that would blow you through the ceiling.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/
israel's battles against terror and tyranny are OUR battles, too...let's consider that the israelis decides to pull out of israel altogether (god forbid), do you think hamas, hezbollah, etc. will be satisfied? do you think they would focus all their energy and money on improving life for their people and building a peaceful nation? well, it hasn't happened in lebanon or gaza--the jury is still out on the west bank but remains hopeful
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Hush little baby don't you cry...
And if that Mocking bird won't sing...
540 Palestinians killed compared to 4 Israeli citizens and 1 IDF soldier. And the rockets keep raining down on all those desperately terrorized Jews. This is tantamount to the horrors of the Warsaw Ghetto.
Hitler's dreaded SS used to impose a 100 to 1 ratio in their acts of retribution for any German killed by the Polish underground. And yet the "stupid pollocks" continued to resist.
The IDF is targeting Hospitals, clinics and schools where displaced children gather.
They are targeting Ambulances and medics trying to reach the wounded and dying.
No wonder the Israelis wont allow the world press in. Hard to claim the terrorists were cowering behind diapers and apron strings when the mangled body parts aren't clutching weapons.
How much more death and destruction will it take to quench the blood lust of revenge? When will the FatTrads of the world say enough? NEVER AGAIN!
Delusional? Yeah I am delusional enough to believe that some of you who's hearts have not been permanently blackened by Fox news and AIPAC might just read the truth and weep.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200915143237167997.html
Civilian deaths mount in Gaza war
Women and children are among the many
Palestinian casualties [AFP]
Palestinian civilians are continuing to suffer as the Israeli military pushes deeper into the Gaza Strip.
At least 540 people have been killed in the territory in the last 10 days, with at least 100 deaths reported since the Israeli ground offensive began on Saturday.
Among the dead on Monday was a family of seven from Shati refugee camp, who were killed by Israeli navy shelling.
Three siblings from one family, as well as a girl and her grandfather, also died in the Zeitoun neighbourhood of Gaza during artillery shelling.
Emergency medical services have also come under attack with the al-Awda hospital in Jabaliya being hit by two Israeli shells, foreign human rights activists said.
"Two consecutive shells just landed in the busy car park 15 metres from the entrance to the emergency room," Alberto Arce of the International Solidarity Movement said in a statement.
"The entrance of the emergency room was damaged. At the time of the shelling ambulances were bringing in the wounded that keep pouring in."
Medics killed
On Sunday, an Israeli raid killed at least four paramedics as they tried to reach wounded Palestinians. Ambulances have also been hit in the attacks, Palestinian sources said.
IN DEPTH
Latest news and analysis from Gaza and Israel
Al Jazeera Labs: Report on and track the war
Send us your views and eyewitness videos
Watch our coverage of the war on Gaza Israeli government officials say they are not targeting civilians, but only seeking to halt rocket fire from the Palestinian Hamas movement governing Gaza.
There are also fears that the humanitarian situation will further deteriorate as the strip, home to 1.5 million people, is suffering from acute shortages of fuel, food and medical supplies.
Iyad Nasr of the Red Cross in Gaza City said that the military operation has worsened the hardships created by the Israeli blockade over the last 18 months.
"The size of the operations and the size of the misery we are seeing here on the ground is just overwhelming," he said.
"We are trying our best to support the infrastructure that has been depleted ... and prevent the total collapse of the medical systems.
Nasr also said that aid workers and emregency medical personnel were finding it increasingly difficult to move around the territory after the Israeli military effectively split it in two.
"The ICRC has to contact the Israeli authorities for each single wounded to be evacuated with an ambulance," he said.
Al Jazeera's Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Gaza City, said that many other Gazans have fled their homes taking refuge in schools converted into temporary shelters by UN agencies.
"The United Nations says 13,000 people, over 2,000 families, have now been internally displaced because of the fighting, and that is just in the north of the strip," he said.
'People are suffering'
Tzipi Livni, the Israeli foreign minister, has said that there is no crisis and that aid is getting through, but Christopher Gunness, the UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa) spokesman, said her denials were absurd.
"The organisation for which I work - Unrwa - has approximately 9,000 to 10,000 workers on the ground. They are speaking with the ordinary civilians in Gaza... People are suffering," he said.
Thousands of Palestinians have fled their homes and taken refuge in schools [EPA] "A quarter of all those being killed now are civilians. So when I hear people say we're doing our best to avoid civilian casualties that rings very hollow indeed."
About 250,000 people in the northern part of Gaza are also reported to be without electricity. The main power plant has been shut down for lack of fuel due to Israel's blockade.
The British-based Save The Children charity on Monday warned that newborn babies in the Gaza strip were at risk of hypothermia because of the power cuts and freezing winter temperatures.
"We need to deliver more food and blankets to ensure that children do not die of hunger and cold," Dominic Nutt, a spokesman for the group, said.
"People also must be able to move freely and safely so they can provide for their families when food does become available."
Despite the crisis in Gaza, Mahmoud al-Zahar, a senior Hamas official, said the group was heading for "victory" against the Israeli military.
He said that Hamas's armed wing, the Izz-e-din al-Qassam Brigades, had "given the most beautiful performances during its confrontation with the army that the world thought invincible".
Palestinian factions have continued to launch rockets into southern Israel, despite more than a week of aerial bombardment by Israel and the ground offensive.
One Israeli soldier has been confirmed killed in the Gaza assault so far, with at least 49 others wounded. Four Israelis have also been killed by Palestinian rockets.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"It is unrealistic to expect a state such as Israel to sit back forever while another state hostile to its very existence continues to lob missiles. Someone earlier wondered what the U.S. would do if the goverment of Mexico continued to fire missiles from Tijuana."
You forget to include both sides of the provocation. Would it be OK for the US to forcibly confiscate the best areas of Baja, against it's own agreed upon international obligations and start US towns there?
A lot of Israel's crimes have nothing to do with self defense but are pure land grap and ethnic cleansing. Any attempt to put all the blame in the Palestinians without acknowledging that they have some good reasons to fight back are lopsided and misleading.
Just as the group in Israel "Peace Now" keeps saying, the illegal settlement activity and land grapping has to stop before any of Israel's righteous bombings and invasions start to have moral authority.
And it's pretty sad that Israel is now said to be using phosphorus weapons in Gaza, one of the most densely populated places on earth
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/01/05-0
"The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas, but there is no blanket ban under international law on its use as a smokescreen or for illumination. However, Charles Heyman, a military expert and former major in the British Army, said: "If white phosphorus was deliberately fired at a crowd of people someone would end up in The Hague. White phosphorus is also a terror weapon. The descending blobs of phosphorus will burn when in contact with skin."
The stuff doesn't stop burning, It can burn you to the bone. Not exactly a precise weapon for urban warfare
PEace
karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Thousands of Palestinians have fled their homes and taken refuge in schools [EPA] "A quarter of all those being killed now are civilians. So when I hear people say we're doing our best to avoid civilian casualties that rings very hollow indeed."
About 250,000 people in the northern part of Gaza are also reported to be without electricity. The main power plant has been shut down for lack of fuel due to Israel's blockade.
The British-based Save The Children charity on Monday warned that newborn babies in the Gaza strip were at risk of hypothermia because of the power cuts and freezing winter temperatures.
I've heard white phosphorous can really keep you warm. Maybe this is really more largesse of Israeli humanitarianism. Don't want no babies gettin' cold before their time. Eh?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Your bleeding heart touched me Philo. Hamas loves all the blood and guts. The more the better for them since they use it for propaganda purposes. Hamas wanted this fight and have gotten more than they bargained for. Cry me a river Philo. Look to Hamas if you want to condemn some group. Hamas doesn't give a rat's ass about Palestinian casualties, the more the better.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Could you DaftRat? Would you?
And Woody I feel sorry for you. In your deluded war hawk machismo you are a pawn to the insidious lies of the occupying power. You refuse to glimpse any glint of truth that hasn't been gift wrap in the one sided narrative you blindly and callously cling to.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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So are the Israeli leaders to do in Gaza as their US counterparts did in Iraq and
throw the baby out with the Bathist?
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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Stalin - Hitler - Pol Pot - Meir, Rabin,Begin, Shamir, Sharon, Netanyahu, Barak (Ehud), Olmert. Murderous scum.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Good list but you missed Allende, Johnson, Nixon and Kissinger to name a few.
Edit to say OOPs I meant to type Pinnochet my bad.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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The solution is to give Gaza back to Egypt, if they still want it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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The solution is a one state democratic union where all citizens of widest diversity are alloted the same right to peace, justice, freedom and the pursuit of happiness. Where all citizens are emboldened by the responsibility of electing the most suitable representative. Where collaboration not conflict is the norm. Where all children can grow up to be the best they can be no matter who they pray goodnight to..
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"I've often written that I hope for a homeland for the Palestinian people, but maybe you're right, maybe they are incapable and should live as a minority group within Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon."
Sounds like you are coming around to the expulsion option Dafty. thought you said no one meant that any more.
What they need is to live in freedom and dignity in a land they too can call home.
The land can be shared if liberty and justice are likewise mutual. ONE STATE.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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For practical purposes, Kissinger and Nixon murdered Allende. Hard to see how they can be lumped together. Allende may have been a 'socialist', and liked his anti-US rhetoric, but he was democratically elected. The CIA sponsored coup against him in 1973 was an evil day in US history.
I guess he should instead have been one of the nasty military dictators that the US likes so much to have power in Latin America. Like Pinochet.
Edit: Moved, so that Tami can be 666, and FatTrad has to settle for runner-up.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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i was wrong.
israeli zionism > nazism.
isn't there going to
be an election in the region
soon?
wonder what that has to
do with whats going on.
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