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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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No. Violence or advocating violence against the government is treason. The threshold for domestic terrorism is coercion (against anyone).
They aren't exclusive definitions.
If FOX is advocating violent overthrow they are committing treason.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Hang on then, I've got a class of domestic terrorists to teach.....
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Let me know how it works out.
Take names.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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After seeing the outcome, are you still confused about why he wanted to get away?
Escopeta,
there is absolutely no doubt that there are bad cops. Just like there are bad people.
But use some common sense, cops are fairly low paid , under trained humans with guns, and some of them are bad. Also, they are more than likely to get away with violence, so why egg them on? So, you can either egg them on when stopped for a traffic violation, run like hell and hope for the best, or you can do your best to deal with them with respect and not offer any threats. You see, we can get all pissed off when they shoot and kill someone needlessly, but by then its too late. You've been shot and killed. So, if you have nothing to run from why run? And if you do have something to run from, well, run fast.
I am in no way saying that shooting the guy was OK, its not. But its too late for him and I bet the cops realize they f*#ked up too.
But you are missing the entire point. The point is that the feds let the f*#kers in NV go and they were clearly more of a threat as they aimed guns at federal agents. It is pretty apparent that this has fueled the fire for the f*#ks out at Malheur. Meanwhile, other Law enforcement agencies are killing lots of guys every week for far less. It is that injustice that people should be pissed off about.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
There have been reports that local law enforcement as well as local federal employees and their families have been threatened with violence and intimidated by supporters of these clowns as well ass by the ranchers as far back as the 90's. Sounds like intimidation to me. And if they are not trying to influence by breaking the law, then what the hell are they doing? This would appear to fall into the definition.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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What kind of moron occupies a Wildlife Refuge? The kind that hides behind their wives and children after they start a fight...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Follow the money. Laws like this came about from big prison business funding the elections of as#@&%es
I don't think that this was the case here, but I agree that it is a terrible problem. We have people who were caught with a few ounces of weed spending more time in prison than rapists.
Mandatory minimums were enacted because there was a push that judges were letting people off with light sentences. Perhaps that happened, but now the mandatory minimums are way out of line.
I have no sympathy for the actions of the Hammonds and others in Harney County regarding their threats to the BLM employees. I've hear northern Nevada is much the same. Those people are threatened all of the time.
You just can't have it. It isn't in any way legal (or moral) behavior. I really have no sympathy for the Bundy and militia contingent. They have a twisted ultra right view of government, and it is all out there to read if you want to learn about this situation and the earlier one at the Bundy Ranch.
This wasn't the case with the Hammonds. They have a huge ranch of about 10,000 acres. They also have 20,000 acres of grazing rights. Federal fees for grazing are a joke. The federal grazing fee for 2015 is $1.69 per AUM, as compared to the 2014 fee of $1.35. Oregon charges over 5 bucks per AMU per month on state land, and private grazing leases run upwards of 20 bucks per month. The BLM allows grazers to use the land for a pittance. So the Hammonds have benefitted greatly from this arrangement.
They have had their differences here and there with the BLM, but they handled it in court. The difference between the Hammonds and the Bundy's couldn't be more stark.
I've already said that the 5 year mandatory minimum sentences were too harsh, as did the judge who handed down the sentence. Mandatory minimums take away appropriate punishment from judges, and it was intended to, back when they became popular in fighting inner city crime.
I sympathize with the Hammond family to a degree, but I have no sympathy for the Bundys and their militia brethren. If they think that they are going to hold this facility "for years" as they have said, then the law needs to get its act together.
They also need to punish those who pointed weapons at federal officers and employees at the dust up in Nevada. I would guess that the feds are gathering evidence to do just that.
This is different from a bunch of students taking over an administration building to protest Vietnam. These guys don't believe in federal authority. Period.
As usual, wiki has a great page about their political beliefs:
1) He is a member of the Sovereign Citizen movement, which is more whacko than Tim McVeigh.
From Wiki:
According to The Guardian, Bundy told his supporters that "We definitely don't recognize [the BLM director's] jurisdiction or authority, his arresting power or policing power in any way," and in interviews he used the language of the sovereign citizen movement, thereby gaining the support of members of the Oath Keepers, the White Mountain Militia and the Praetorian Guard militias.[35] The movement is considered by the FBI as the nation’s top domestic terrorism threat
Does anyone know what laws are being broken by the Bundy and Militiamen who are occupying the wildlife refuge building by arms?
If I took my trusty .22 and kicked everyone out of my public library, I would be shortly visited by a SWAT team, even though I live in an open carry state. The library is a gun free facility, though.
It is this that you should take away from all of this:
The movement is considered by the FBI as the nation’s top domestic terrorism threat
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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There have been reports that local law enforcement as well as local federal employees and their families have been threatened with violence and intimidated by supporters of these clowns as well ass by the ranchers as far back as the 90's. Sounds like intimidation to me. And if they are not trying to influence by breaking the law, then what the hell are they doing? This would appear to fall into the definition
There is a lot of info out there supporting this. They refuse to serve federal employees at businesses, they threaten the lives of their families on the phone, and in parts of Nevada, regularly have guns pointed at them while going down the road.
This has gotten out of hand. Most of the beef in the US is ranched east of the hundredth meridian. The western ranchers are subsidized by low grazing fees, and the land simply can't handle the cattle like they can in, say, Texas or Oklahoma. We graze them through the winter on winter wheat, we can grow hay. Bundy's ranch is in the middle of a desert.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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I sympathize with the Hammond family to a degree, but I have no sympathy for the Bundys and their militia brethren. If they think that they are going to hold this facility "for years" as they have said, then the law needs to get its act together.
They also need to punish those who pointed weapons at federal officers and employees at the dust up in Nevada. I would guess that the feds are gathering evidence to do just that.
This is different from a bunch of students taking over an administration building to protest Vietnam. These guys don't believe in federal authority. Period.
Yep. If the feds do nothing this time it will escalate. Some of those guys are nut jobs, and I bet they are already getting nervous. My guess is that some of them want no violence and some are getting itchy already.
It will be good to let them stew for a while, but dont let the f*#kers get away.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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I hope the feds are using this to root out all the other wannabe martyrs. Let them stay all winter. Then arrest or kill them, if nothing dramatic happens before.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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YingHah.
He had me right at:
Col. Christian J. Yingling
[Commanding Officer
Pennsylvania Light Foot Militia 129th Battalion
Laurel Highlands Ghost company]
Apparently, as smart as he claims to be, he has not yet heard of NSA.
Has anyone checked the odds in Las Vegas that he will be in jail before the year is out?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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But use some common sense, cops are fairly low paid , under trained humans with guns, and some of them are bad. Also, they are more than likely to get away with violence, so why egg them on? So, you can either egg them on when stopped for a traffic violation, run like hell and hope for the best, or you can do your best to deal with them with respect and not offer any threats. You see, we can get all pissed off when they shoot and kill someone needlessly, but by then its too late. You've been shot and killed. So, if you have nothing to run from why run? And if you do have something to run from, well, run fast.
8 LAPD patrol officers' pay tops $200,000 a year - latimes
articles.latimes.com/2007/mar/31/local/me-overtime31
Many of these people are mentally ill or intoxicated, It is not reasonable to hold them to a high degree of reasonableness. One of the tactics that police officers learn, is if they want to administer a beat-down, keep repeating the phrase "stop resisting!" in case there is any video or audio recording. That alone will mitigate any actual evidence that the person was not cooperative/unresisting/unconscious, and the officer will almost certainly get a pass on what they've done.
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dirtbag
climber
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By Col. Christian J. Yingling
Ok …Everybody… please gather around and listen to what I am about to say..Then either shut your mouth, or share this far and wide. If you have ANY faith in me as a leader you will heed what I am about to say. If not..I want nothing to do with you. simple as that
That guy is bonkers.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I found this, some interesting stuff .....
Do you often find interesting stuff in the trash? (Because that there is some serious intellectual dumpster diving)
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WBraun
climber
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I don't give a sh!t whether he's bonkers, it comes form thrash or what ever you loons think and project.
The guy claims the feds are getting ready to squash these guys in Oregon.
There was a some interesting things he had to say about what so called really happened in Nevada.
Whether any of it is true or not I don't give a sh!t as I just read it for the hell of it.
Gawd damn are you people so fuking self righteous about yourselves ....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And you sir, are a crankloon.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Anybody see Trevor Noah?
These nutjobs have taken over a remote frigid federal building and are making a national appeal for all the other nutjobs to come and join them, like some kind of reverse GETMO that rounds itself up.
Win/win.
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John M
climber
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I found it kind of interesting. He makes the point of why weren't some of those guys arrested at the Bundy ranch, he names names, when others have been arrested after having made threats. I have been wondering that too. He points to a Schuyler Barbeau for having been arrested and in prison for threats made against the Feds.
I am not saying that that site is legit or this guy is legit. Just curiosity on my part.
Not entirely sure I want to try to unwind this stuff. Just found it interesting.
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