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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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MikeL may be the only participant on this thread who has been under actual enemy fire in a war. Anyone else? I think that gives him a little bit more credibility than usual in this regard. I appreciate his comment about Ike.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Is it really news to anyone that in the modern world people often have more than one career?
Matthew, the schizophrenic at the homeless shelter where i serve grub has also been shot at in a war, but i wouldn't rely on him as a source for a treatise on presidential history, although he does seem well versed in demonology.
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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'Cosmic Prank'
I was born from a human and human I am,
My father was human and and so was my mam,
They took me around and they taught me their faith,
Then they taught me their God the omnipotent one,
Had cast out his children and hung out his son,
And said we were damned and that we were to blame,
So I asked of my folks what it meant to blaspheme,
And this I was told was the most wretched thing,
That by turning my back on all that they believed,
Was the gravest of sins that was ever perceived,
For assuredly lost and forever I'd be,
Damned and condemned for all eternity,
And never in my whole life did I want more to be free,
Than I did then and there from such hypocrisy,
To be told that to murder and rape by the score,
Or to cast off your children while conceiving of more,
That the most heinous crimes were forgiven by God,
That such penitent ones found redemption was odd,
When to question such reasoning damned me to hell,
Was so grossly inequitably worse for the smell,
That to trust in such thinking was more than I could bear,
An impossible burden that was shouldered through fear,
This religion and doctrine imposed on the meek,
Seemed more than unjust but an argument so weak,
Crying out to my reason and sanity dear,
That my mind was made up and the choice was then clear,
This impossible God was a dream and a myth,
That poisoned my thinking and tasted of pith,
And would never more sully my thinking herewith,
I have questioned and confronted authority so,
And bucked at the system as some of you know,
And stirred up the sh!t for most of my life,
It's somehow in my nature to strive for the strife,
While creating some mayhem a byproduct true,
To break a few eggs and make bitter the brew,
Not something I'm proud of but this I must do,
Is to tell you I struggled for for forty plus years,
To try and believe in the God of my peers,
Wether God of the rock or of ones I hold dear,
What was more than a choice became patently clear,
And of this I must stress if you'll lend me your ear,
If I'm only a human and only a man,
I will live out my days living best that I can,
And there's nothing I know in the world that's more true,
Than the love that I give and what that love can do,
For the rest is conjecture not founded in fact,
Eternal damnation and judgement it's true,
Don't shadow my judgment or things that I do,
Not believing in God is not something I chose,
For to lose my free will I'm not willing to do,
Illusion or no what I'm thinking is right,
That the cosmos is comic and laughing tonight.
-bushman
12/07/2014
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Bushman, have you ever had your poetry published?
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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Too busy working, writing, compiling right now,
maybe I will try to later.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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What a strange bunch here.
.....
Yes we're a "bag of bones and blood." Plus a whole lot more.
I learned a long time ago...
be wary of those with their love affair with "just" this or "just" that - as in We're "just" molecules according to scientists or We're "just" a bag of bones according to biologists or We're "just" animals according to that militant atheist Dawkins.
It telegraphs (or in LGo's manner: betrays) a certain attitude or mindset (that typically is arrayed against how nature (really truly) works or arrayed against science for revealing it).
Understandable. Given our history. But one would hope there might be a little more effort put forth from those who wind up being the naysayers or deniers to push through the growing pains, dashed expectations of old (of being special, godly, angelic, saintly, immortal, lol, etc) and to adapt.
.....
It is outrageous those laws against atheists are still on the books of those States. Speaks not only to our public priorities but also our values. Shame, shame. I say, yes, if there's something more our social media's "outrage machine" should be set loose on, it's this.
.....
On a brighter note, the long-standing judeochristian precepts and sentiments (nevermind Islamo) re human sexuality are pretty much dead already, yay! - thanks to American culture, the emergence of the internet; shows and films like Naked and Afraid, A Million Ways to Die in the West (2014), etc.. and twerking...
Progress, lol!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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BB said something about Science existing forever in the past.
No. Not really. Science is at its most basic point merely a method for knowing or not knowing. Theory and observation or observation leading to theory.
Science, in the recorded human record, really started with the Greeks. It puttered along until it exploded a couple of hundred years or more ago.
Science is a human activity. It doesn't exist without humans, or some other intelligent and curious agent to perform it, because, as I said, it is a method whose purpose is getting closer and closer to the truth about nature. Nothing more.
Man, keeping up with this thread is impossible to do and still hold down a job. I won't be around for a while. Every now and then my noggin gets clogged with ones and zeroes and I need to go decompress.
In my old age, the best way is to just fill the pack and take off for a month. It isn't the season for Alaska, so I'm heading off for the desert until mid-January.
I suppose that I do this as my sort of meditation. After a couple of weeks you don't even talk to yourself anymore!
So while you wankers are staring at screens, think of what I am looking at!
See ya. Don't kill each other.
edit: The doorbell just rang and the Christians came by! They left some light reading about eternal life and reuniting with our dead friends.
Oh, if I could only get drunk with Shipley again....
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Actually, it was just Krishna. Oppenheimer was merely quoting him.
I suppose we should prevent doctors from holding high office, what, with Dr Mengele and all. And sub captains (Carter the Killer). After all, a job once held defines the person - values, loves, intellect, adaptability, leadership qualities, effectiveness, creativity, energy, capacity fo love, insight...
Go forth and judge that which you do not know, my brothers and sisters, for you are the chosen ones.
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WBraun
climber
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Base104 -- "Science .. really started with the Greeks"
Nope .... try again .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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How fitting, and what perfect timing, just yesterday...
"Patriotic Americans have the right not to believe in any God"
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-citizenship-religion-20141207-story.html#page=1
Jan, you often post as if times aren't changing, as if theists and atheists are locked in this timeless conflict, doomed to stalemate ad infinitum.
Wake up and smell the coffee, dear. Change has never been more afoot, even within a singular generation (25years) or singular decade even, on behalf of, in favor of, science and all the science-based disciplines, institutions and efforts.
Yes, and even by the Dawkins and Harris groups, lol!
Cheers!
.....
Deserves another ref:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/us/in-seven-states-atheists-push-to-end-largely-forgotten-ban-.html?_r=0
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan, you often post as if times aren't changing, as if theists and atheists are locked in this timeless conflict, doomed to stalemate ad infinitum.
For the second time in two days, huh?
I had Quaker ancestors who were thrown in prison because they refused to take oaths on the Bible, quoting Jesus as saying you should tell the truth all the time, and not have to swear on special occasions that you would. So of course I support atheists having the same right not to be a Christian and swear on the Bible to hold public office. In my family we've been upholding that right since the 1700's. You're the one who's making things out to be black and white, "dear", with your not so subtle attempt at a sexist put down. You're not nearly as modern and with the times as you think you are.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"...your not so subtle attempt at a sexist put down."
LOL. Am I now a sexist?! Now?! Ha!
I'd be in good company, Dawkins and Harris have both called sexists already, lol!
If you must know, I had of all people Ann Landers going through my head when I typed in the Wuastcd line, so there. ;)
Don't be a confabulator (again, which you have been many times, btw). And please stop associating with these "militant" feminist "bullies" who cry sexist! or There, sexism! at every ref to gender, it's such a put-off. Because this is so vain and transparent it's laughable.
Here this shirt is a recent symbol...
http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/17/its-time-to-push-back-against-feminist-bullies/#disqus_thread
.....
So I gather you agree then? "It's Ovah for Jehovah." It's just a matter of time? Christian religion is fast becoming (to the extent it isn't already) Christian mythology? Islam has to have its Reformation? And then we're free and clear?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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speaking of modernity, nobody calls women they dont know 'dear', except AM radio DJs on man shows. Do your own survey. you've already got one data point.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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It is outrageous those laws against atheists are still on the books of those States. Speaks not only to our public priorities but also our values. Shame, shame. I say, yes, if there's something more our social media's "outrage machine" should be set loose on, it's this.
Doesn't it speak more of the values that the original writers had to say? These seven States Constitution,s where merely modifications from The original Constitution of the US. Theirs is a language and action that goes against the Original Const., but wasn't that what the reason for having "States" was all about?? Freedom of Will, Freedom of Speech, And MOST Importantly Freedom to practice ANY Religion(Any denomination that worships "a God" as the Creator and Provider of the universe), separate from the Government! Separation of Church from State is in the foundation of The US Const. The language of "All man are created equal", and that each has a voice and a free-will choice in the construction of social morales and Laws. Which are then justified with reward or punishment. It ALL wreaks of new testament Bible! IT"S OBLIVIOUS!
Separating state from church includes keeping church out of state. They shalt not write laws to promote their spiritual bias! Today we all can see Atheism is a religion too. And They have certainly had a voice in Government thusfar. And they should be allowed to. Since 1776 the worlds ppulation has gone from 1Bil. to 7Bil. So all religions have grown a louder voice!
seems like the Atheist agenda has been to erase the signposts from whence we came.
but thanks for bringing to our attention this unlawful law needing reformation!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Thought I'd check in and see what the score is...Anybody??? I'm taking science and giving points.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Bushman: That the cosmos is comic and laughing tonight.
Ha! Great line.
So I can ask you (but not too seriously): what is poetry to you? I suspect you won’t be talking about the rhyming, or the meter, or the stanzas, but something else. It’s the life of it (writing poetry), it would seem to me. You might feel your personality engaged, but then again, there seems to be this very real feeling that *you’re not doing it*. It’s doing you.
At least that’s how it feels often with me when I write. Sure, I edit (who doesn’t), but there is a kind of spontaneous flow in that, too. I observe that I write . . . because I must, it’s who or what I am at the moment (on a very minuscule level). BTW, I appreciate your wont to use a dissonant medium / expression (poetry) for this thread (religion and science). There seems to be something fresh and wonderful when confronted with clashing harmonies.
Base:
I hope you have a great time away. I’m waiting for the Total Recall get-away. (Wouldn’t that be cool?!)
Tvash: no one here has any clue as to what the physicist in question's personal beliefs are. Nor do they necessarily interfere with the ability to fulfill one's official duty.
Certainly. I’m bringing up the idea or recognition that as we think of ourselves normally, we put ourselves into boxes far more than others put us into them. Being Christian, a scientist, a physicist, a teacher, a husband, a climber tends to mean far more to a person than it does to anyone else. (At least this is my argument from the literature—which is, as you know, is invariably incomplete.) I don’t deny that anyone can break outside of their own visions of themselves, but I’m saying it’s darned hard and unusual.
To people (like Ed) who think such characterization of others is outrageous stereotyping, I’d say that most people don’t have much choice. The conspiring forces of identification are so strong. It’s almost impossible to think, feel, see, etc. for oneself because there are no standards or benchmarks to make reference to. For most of us, when “it’s all you,” you’re nowhere and lost. (THEN who and what are you?)
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Actually, it was just Krishna. Oppenheimer was merely quoting him
Vishnu.
Oppenheimer was beside himself with worry just before the blast. Groves had to take him outside the bunker and try to calm him down. The book, The Manhattan Project, is an anthology with articles written by those who were there. It's an interesting fact that although Groves oversaw the creation of modern security measures, when the army would discover a scientist or technician who was feeding information to the soviets, they simply exiled them from the project and didn't prosecute.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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^^^what he said.
Dammit, I knew that - and I've even read Brighter than a Thousand Suns!
Memory...argh!
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jgill:
My reading was also Krishna from the Bhagavad Gita, as spoken to Arjuna. But it's just a story--but what a story!
eeyonkee: Thought I'd check in and see what the score is...Anybody??? I'm taking science and giving points.
You have to play to pay.
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