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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Jun 26, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
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I guess we get what we get.
We probably get what we deserve.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 26, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
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Snowden has indeed altered U.S.-China relations, by giving China new strength on an issue of which it was struggling to gain any leverage at all. And that—more than any single secret—may be the greatest legacy of Snowden’s visit to Hong Kong.
I doubt the Chinese government has really learned anything new. He named one of the Chinese universities hacked by the NSA, big deal. What he did do was create a political scandal, landing there like a hot potato and causing the Hong Kong government extreme anxiety. The Chinese read the extradition request and ask the US to clarify some details. Whatever that was about we do not know. While the ball is in the State Dept's court (they will resist admitting this to the death), Snowden escapes. I don't see any evidence of him working with the Chinese government, and now he left there because he finallly realized they would extradite him once the Americans addressed their concerns. Did someone tip him off? Who knows, but that's not espionage. It should not be a crime to create a political scandal. Many former CIA agents have come out against the Agency although they are limited in what they can talk about. For example, Ralph McGeHee, a former CIA agent who wrote a book about war crimes in the Vietnam war, but apparently stayed within the lines of what he could disclose and did not get into trouble. If you look at the actual info that Snowden disclosed, it's not a lot, particularly about hacking in China, which is the only thing that's even related to any foreign country. Everything else he disclosed was about illegal spying on Americans. Yet most Americans probably want to crucify him for it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 26, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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the elite seem to desperately fantasize that controlling all the money and power will save them during social collapse
That happened a long time ago.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 26, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
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...secrecy seems to be more often used to hide discreditable acts than to protect justifiable sources and methods...
Well, that's a generalization that can never be proven one way or the other. Either way, this is certainly nothing new--as Winston Churchill said:
"The truth is to be protected by a bodyguard of lies."
Curt
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Jun 26, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
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How do secrets work? Don't they seem to work through manipulation and creating advantages over others?
As a teacher of business and corporate strategy, I've worked in / for various organizations that believed that their strategies, their capabilities, their assets should be kept secret. That never made sense to me. How does one get people in organizations aligned and working for the same objectives? How do stakeholders know who they're dealing with, and what's really going on? How do competitors come to know what they should be doing and how? It's my observation that too often competitors come head-to-head against one another, leading to zero-sum games. In those situations, there must be a winner and losers.
Experimental research has shown repeatedly that the best strategy in all instances is what is known as tit-for-tat. Do what the other guy does (no more, but no less), and in the long run, tit-for-tat leads to trust, credibility, and mutually beneficial interdependent actions. In time, people learn that deception, guile, and opportunism leads to dysfunctional and negative outcomes.
Transparency: be honest, up-front; put your cards on the table.
I might think that the extent that "competitors" know what our strategies are, the more they will avoid being direct competitors and finally seek out better ecological (eco-system-like) positions. Knowing that the U.S. has close tabs on worldwide internet communication will either encourage less communication or different means of communication--the latter which could then be focused on. Once an enemy has few places to go (or it gets too hard), they might be encouraged to negotiate to mutually beneficial positions.
On the other hand, if you want to stick it to your enemies, if you must be a winner at all costs, then by all means, keep secrets. Make the other guy suffer. Of course, this tends to encourage never-ending escalations and conflicts. It emphasizes pain and suffering of the other guy over learning to live with one another.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 26, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
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All in all, the odds are slim Snowden has much of value beyond embarrassing program documentation and the primary damage he's doing is to our [self] image of the U.S. as a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus.
The real damage is that we pretend to be "a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus." but we are increasingly not. Because of that, Snowden did THIS country's people a favor. Maybe we can stem the tide before we ARE a China.
Damaging a false self image is a good thing. The rest of the world already knows we're two faced, but we don't get it here yet
Peace
Karl
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 26, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
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...we are not safe despite the Patriot Act being in effect and reducing our civil liberties, and we are not safe despite the gross violation of our civil liberties by the government and the NSA spying on us by collecting (for at least seven years) every single electronic communication of every US citizen and storing it in perpetuity.
You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.
Oh really?
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-18/world/40043402_1_plots-alexander-national-security-agency
Curt
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jun 26, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
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What Snowden did was highly illegal.
But what the NSA is doing is highly unconstitutional.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 26, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
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What Snowden did was highly illegal.
Sometimes it's the right thing to do.
Man made laws are relative.
The laws of the Universe are not under the jurisdiction of stupid political monkey men playing God ......
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 26, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
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Really.
Well, it would appear that some suspension of reality is required to hold that opinion. Additionally, there is absolutely no proof in either of the links you provide above that the NSA activity is unconstitutional.
Curt
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crøtch
climber
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Jun 26, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
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jghedge & Curt - How do you interpret US v. Warshak to apply to this situation?
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crøtch
climber
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Jun 26, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
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"The content of your emails, and the content of your phone conversations, are subject to the 4th amendment, as per the SC"
And do you think that the NSA may be engaged in reading - and when I say reading, I mean using computers to analyze - the contents of emails without warrants?
The other option is that they are merely archiving them for future use which seems highly improbable to me because it's not what "big data" is about. And the NSA and CIA are clearly interested in big data.
I understand that this is supposition, but due to the classified nature of the topic, that is what we are left with.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jun 26, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
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so lets say the NSA programs have saved american lives. what was the cost per life saved?
compare that to all teh other stuff that kills people that we could be spending money on and you can get a cost per benefit and then debate intelligently rather than emotionally about cost of security versus lets say, cost of health care or even food and cost of pollution prevention.
instead the government has decided for you. don't you feel better now? i dont.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 26, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
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On the contrary, I'd suggest that the opposite is true: some suspension of reality is required to believe that because all US citizens are being spied on that as consequence you are now safe.
My suspension of reality comment was in reply to this statement you made:
You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.
Clearly, with 50 terror plots averted, your "for nothing" statement does require a suspension of reality.
Curt
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 26, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
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http://dietagespresse.com/snowden-in-wien-gelandet-vertraut-in-tragheit-der-justiz/
"I don't have the time to translate this article from Die Tagespresse, an Viennese newspaper, but they are reporting that Snowden arrived on the first Austrian Airlines flight from Moscow this morning, and has asked for political asylum. No one else is reporting this -- yet. The headline reads: Snowden has landed in Vienna: trusts the "sluggishness" of (Austrian) justice." Quotes from Austrian immigration officers, etc."
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crøtch
climber
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Jun 26, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
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Telcos/ISPs do not have the ability to detain you, arrest you, tax you, deport you, execute you. Telcos do not regulate commerce, your license to practice your trade, the safety of your food etc. There are reasons to have different standards. Further, I freely enter into a contractual agreement with my provider. They have a privacy policy, and if they are in violation of that privacy policy I can seek justice through the courts.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 26, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
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Sometimes I can't believe I'm saying this, but listen to Hedge, Curt and Norton. You may disagree with their interpretation, but the SCOTUS has consistently adopted it.
The Fourth Amendment protects areas where we have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The courts have consistently held that business records, such as how many phone calls a person makes and to whom, are business records with no reasonable expectation of privacy.
Traffic analysis existed before WWII. The sorts of data we know (as opposed to speculate)that NSA collected is similar to that obtained in a police stake-out, noting who enters and leaves where and when. That sort of thing has never been held to constitute a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.
While recent revelations cause some of us to mistrust governmental use of information, the NSA data collection that's been "exposed" by Snowden is neither illegal nor unconstitutional. Frankly, I would have been disappointed in the NSA had it been been pursuing these generally-accepted law enforcement and intelligence opportunities.
John
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Jun 26, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
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I saw Edward Snowden down at the 7-11 buying a Slushie and a couple of Little Debbie Zebra Cakes. Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, and Gwyneth Paltrow were waiting in the pickup giggling like a bunch of teenagers. Fukkin epic.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 26, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
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snowden needs a 308 round through his noggin
Ron Anderson, if you are really wise enough to know that this is a viable solution to the world's social political problems, then perhaps I should sign up to help you prove the concept.
However Snowden is probably not going to wander within range of your rifle.
But I can drive over there to your place this afternoon, and we can go out to the range together.
I'll take a walk downrange, and you can try out your proposed solution on my head instead.
If the experiment pans out well, then that's just wonderful and generates new hope for the world.
Then you can make a press release statement to the National Press Club on having verified a simple solution to the world's social political problems.
You'll become as famous as Gandhi or Mandela or the Dalai Lama or even Buddha!
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