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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 23, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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ElCap, do you have any experience in the corporate world? People there are ruthless behind closed doors, but always put on gentleman's spin for the public. So and so resigned for personal reasons or whatnot. The board throwing Lance out looks bad. But to go public with "He resigned without pressure" "for the good of the kids" is win win. The foundation looks good and Lance is left with a good (or less tarnished) image.
I wonder if Lance is liable for criminal prosecution. It seems clear he perjured himself (in the lawsuit with the insurance company for example).
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Oct 23, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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People are greedy and taught to compete rather than cooperate, even if it's destructive.
If your distant ancestors didn't compete violently then you and I would not be here now. Our human greed is what will keep the species around when the world is mostly uninhabitable. It is what got us here and is what will take us into space... maybe.
Unless you take the most religious standpoint on this, people are genetically inclined to be greedy. If you are religious then you can just say that God made us greedy. Either way, that is human nature and LA lost his 7 TDF wins because he was not greedy enough. Had he really wanted to win, he would have figured out how to not dope, not be accused of doping, or not get caught having doped. He had all of the abilities and skills to win 7 TDF titles except for the one that makes people more cautious when doping. He lacked the little extra bit of paranoia that could have kept all of this from happening.
People who are not greedy and don't have any paranoia get eaten by big animals that sneak up behind them while they are sitting around enjoying their philosophy of generosity and fairness.
Dave
P.S. of course some amount of cooperation is a good thing if you are part of a pack of animals that cannot survive as a loner. LA bought his supplies, bikes, clothes, food, etc., from others. Had be not been greedy and cooperated, he would have let someone else win the race because they probably needed it more than he did.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Oct 23, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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Did anyone suggest yet that he got cancer because he was screwing with the chemicals in his body? That would be adding insult to injury but the media often does that sort of thing.
Dave
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matisse
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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OK how many of you out there actually raced bikes at an elite level?
I've been involved in cycling first as an athlete, and then as a coach of elite cyclists and triathletes. The first conversation I have with an athlete is "I am absolutely not interested in helping you dope. "
should everyone who used PEDs while racing be stripped of their titles?
yes.
this is a good thing and long past time.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 23, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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OK how many of you out there actually raced bikes at an elite level?
I've been involved in cycling first as an athlete, and then as a coach of elite cyclists and triathletes. The first conversation I have with an athlete is "I am absolutely not interested in helping you dope. "
should everyone who used PEDs while racing be stripped of their titles?
yes.
this is a good thing and long past time.
Merckx? Who was busted at least once.
Anquetil? Who admitted to it back in the 50s and said most other cyclists were doing it, even back then.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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I guess the only difference between your story and lance's, Chief, is that everyone coming forward in this case has a vested interested in seeing him crucified, because then they can pull a Jimmy Swaggart, cry in front of the camera, "come clean", point to him and then move on with their lives without having all their titles stripped.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 23, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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Lance won seven times in a sport where corporate money drove all the top teams to dope and you think the problem is Lance and not the corporate money? That's just dumb as a stump.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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Did anyone suggest yet that he got cancer because he was screwing with the chemicals in his body?
keep in mind that lance got cancer before he raced in the TdF
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
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When all the top athletes do it the message is undeniable - you either participate or you don't ride - and that's the effect of corporate money; it's a systemic poison that clearly made it not a choice of doping or not, but of riding at all or not. Get a grip, all the noise about Lance is strictly a forest-for-the-trees deal and takes the focus off the real problem.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Yeah, now finally they'll clean up professional sports once and for all.
Do you really believe that? Even for a second?
The game just changes, the cheaters find another way to cheat, another way to game the system for awhile.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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Rick, you are so f*#king smart.
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Degaine
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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The Chief wrote:
Then I got busted with "papers" in my rack locker during a monthly locker health and welfare search by the MAA's. I tried the "never popped pos on the pee test" defense when I went to Mast. The Skipper laughed at me then dealt me the sentence of accountability. Luckily, my LPO and Chief told him I was worth saving and to keep me in. That was the end of my dope smoking/popping days in the Navy.
Lesson quickly learned about accountability for my actions, regardless what everyone else is/was doing.
I fail to see any honor or integrity in the above. You apparently got busted on circumstantial evidence but never actually came clean and admitted what you actually smoked/consumed, and never would have if they hadn't found "papers" in your rack locker.
In any case, many (not all) have stated over and over and over and over again that Lance, Hamilton, Landis, etc., etc., etc., should all receive the same punishment for having committed the same offense. I fail to see how one being more of a celebrity than the others means that one deserves a more stringent sentence.
I also think that they should be going back and testing blood samples for the top 20 finishers of every TdF where they have an archive of blood samples, and then punish those who test positive.
Then they should talk to witness who can testify that sponsors (especially the main team sponsors like US Postal or Robobank, etc) were actively pushing riders to use.
This is just like in 1998 and the Festina/Virenque doping scandal - a lot of hubbub by punishing a supposedly big fish and hoping that everyone would look away and take the microscope off cycling for a while. By only going after Lance the same thing is going to happen - a lot of hubbub, catch and punish the recent hero, then hopefully the sensationalist media will look for blood elsewhere and leave cycling alone to manufacture another Lance-like hero.
Only idiots and chumps think this whole thing starts and stops with Lance.
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Degaine
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
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The Chief wrote:
The System is purging itself.... finally.
No it isn't, it's scapegoating.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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The only way for the sport to clean itself up would be to eliminate corporate sponsorship of teams and individuals and have the sport channel donations to fund each team equally with a fixed amount.
Anything else is window dressing and an acknowledgement they have no real interest in purging or cleaning. Purging the direct corporate money is the only thing that matters.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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The clean ones don't rise high enough to count
Really, Karl? Cause Andy Hampsten won the Giro de Italia and he quit 7-11 rather than being forced to dope by his teammates, primarily Chris Carmichael.
I think all the dopers should be stripped of their titles so guys like Andy have a fair chance to win.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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The Chief:
BTW: I did "acid" and smoked dope pretty regularly in my early years in the Navy. Everyone else was doing it so....
Not once did I ever pop positive on the piss test. Lucky I guess.
Then I got busted with "papers" in my rack locker during a monthly locker health and welfare search by the MAA's. I tried the "never popped pos on the pee test" defense when I went to Mast. The Skipper laughed at me then dealt me the sentence of accountability. Luckily, my LPO and Chief told him I was worth saving and to keep me in.
So you were "worth saving" and Lance Armstrong isn't?
You admit that you didn't confess or take accountability, so it can't be that.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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And Chief, has it occurred to you that people are defending Lance because they think you are an as#@&%e and just to watch you go into coniptions?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coniption
1. coniption - To get wicked mad pissed like a crazy guy on steroids who just stubbed his toe.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
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Remember, I did this for a living in a far more intense and volatile arena.
Like summitpost.org?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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I agree with Werner, this thread has become a flame on The Chief.
Chief, are you worth over $100m because you took drugs when you were young in the Navy? Did you cheat to become a chief?
Lance Armstrong's 'pride' (anybody ever read Beowulf? And what pride can do?) will not allow him to admit cheating, even though all the circumstantial evidence appears to be against him.
He could also be stonewalling knowing that he may have to pay back some dough and the financial consequences.
But if indeed he is still worth millions - more than any of us (put together) I would hazard to guess - and some of you still want to 'protect' his reputation and claim a witch hunt, then by all means, write the guy asking him for a loan or donation for some climbing gear, or your mortgage/rent payment. Then see how your 'hero' replies.
If indeed, he still has millions squirriled away, he's laughing, at you, the sport, at the public. Sort of like some bankers.
Get a grip, the guy cheated, he made millions by doing it (it happens a lot in the financial world, and elsewhere) and he appears not to be remorseful.
As far as philanthropy, altruism and generosity are concerned, Al Capone gave a lot to local neighborhood people, and a certain tax-exile Irish billionaire, who made his initial money (and probably more) with a brown envelope, he is also charitable (good for the PR image and tax write-offs - and lets Billy Boy use his Grumman Gulfstream).
Let's face the unfortunate facts, crime (especially white collar) pays, cheating pays and these people don't care about any of us Supertopians.
Wake up.
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Degaine
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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Hi Patrick
I hear what you are saying (or rather read what you are writing).
I have no need to defend Lance, nor care to. However, I don't think that he should be the only one to pay such a high price for a practice that is rampant among pro cyclists, and I do think that it is utterly ridiculous to treat Lance as some sort of outlier given that doping is a systemic problem in the sport of pro cycling.
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