Look Out! Danger!... Or... "Look Out! Weak Sauce."

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Andrew Barnes

Ice climber

Albany, NY

Oct 22, 2012 - 02:54am PT

Out of curiosity, I watched the video of the pecker being bashed in and also counted the number of hammer hits. I counted approximately 111 hammer blows on the pecker - there were probably more, since I likely mised a few. I'm thinking, ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN blows of the hammer is probably just like sinking a bolt. Really sad.

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Oct 22, 2012 - 05:47am PT

It's funny how all of you aid climbers talk sh#t about each other. My route is harder then yours, my style is better then yours, it's endless. Why are some praised for taking out useless bolts and others are criticized for doing the same thing? Martyr's Birgade removed part of the captains compressor route. Who cares? Why do you guys all hate each other? Shitting on peoples ropes, ratting out people for tossing bag, what a joke.

Da_Dweeb

climber

Oct 22, 2012 - 05:57am PT

Da_Dweeb

climber

Oct 22, 2012 - 06:48am PT

It bears repeating.

TwistedCrank

climber

Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho

Oct 22, 2012 - 10:09am PT

madbolter1 uses Wikipedia to get approach beta in the Tetons?

That is beyond the pale.

or as he might put it: THAT is beyond the pale.

bringmedeath

climber

la la land

Oct 22, 2012 - 12:57pm PT

Richard, you are questioning and accusing others of poor form and even at times yourself. I am curious if you and Mark really drilled bathooks instead of rivets or bolts on Ring of Fire?

How do you feel about people filling those holes?

Not trying to call you out on anything. Just curious as I hate bathooks and find them lame. I've just always prefered to fill the hole, with at least something.

gunsmoke

Mountain climber

Clackamas, Oregon

Oct 22, 2012 - 02:33pm PT

I haven't been following this thread recently, so perhaps I shouldn't be commenting, but from what I've glanced over I'm amazed that this has gone to 600 posts. Seems to me that the issue, bringmedeath, well one of the big issues, is that the route wasn't repeatable. Not a case of "I don't like your rivet; will chop it and put in a bolt" or "I don't like your trenched head; will replace it with a rivet, how do you feel about that?" Rather, it's a case of the style in which the route was put up wouldn't support a repeat ascent. Who's heard of filling holes with wood dowels and then sawing them off? So here's my summary. Climb was done without regard to local ethics. Climb was unrepeatable. Jensen attempted SA. Jensen had to make choices about how to do the SA, or if an SA should even be done. Whatever choices he made, some on this site would find in it an opportunity to flame Richard and every noteworthy climb he has ever done. However, it is clear that the choices Richard made were reasonable choices that any reasonable climber might make. If almost anyone else had done the SA and made a report thereof, this thread would have ended long ago. LOD isn't A6+. LOD was done in very poor style. LOD is currently repeatable, although in a different form than existed for the FA. LOD isn't worth doing as a third ascent. Jensen, in his advanced age, was willing to attempt a route rated at the top end of the spectrum and finished it even when the climbing was ugly. Anything beyond that probably isn't worth the time to write.

WBraun

climber

Oct 22, 2012 - 03:27pm PT

I hate bat hooks and find them lame.

I've just always preferred to fill the hole, with at least something

LOL

A bat hook fills the hole although temporarily. :-)

Richard .... nice interesting report/analysis of your desert climb .....

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Oct 22, 2012 - 11:01pm PT

Thanks, Werner. Appreciated.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Oct 22, 2012 - 11:14pm PT

As I've tried to express, there is no "purity" to be had in aid climbing. No matter where you happen to draw the line, including what you put into holes (including bat hooks), a large number of people will think it's "bad style."

To me the issue comes down to two primary points:

1) Drilling should be sustainable/repeatable! For example, bat hooks on El Cap rock should be good for decades (properly drilled), while they are simply not sustainable at the Fishers. Drilling that is not sustainable requires that subsequent ascent parties MUST climb with the drill, and that necessarily means proliferation of holes.

2) Routes should depend primarily upon natural features. THIS is what makes a route a CLIMB, as THIS is what "conforming to what the rock presents" is all about. The lines we draw about what counts have lots and lots of fuzziness! That's not a bad thing, as long as we're keep our debates focused upon what matters, which is to CLIMB (with the "conform" aspect foremost in mind).

With all the (good and useful) debate about style, we're debating WITHIN the rubric of CLIMBING. What distinguishes this "route" and the tactics employed on it, is that it's off the chart. It's off the spectrum of debate about CLIMBING, because there was virtually no attempt made on the part of the FA team to conform themselves to what the rock presented.

This was no "drilled headwall" or "overdrilled compared to natural placements" effort. On this "route," virtually every placement required the drill, and "features" were not even a significant consideration. When the troll Pelut (God knows?) says, "We put up a nice line," I have no, nada, zip, zero idea what that CAN mean. My SA "put up a much nicer line" with far fewer holes, and I still would not "vouch" for it! So the FA was indeed beyond the pale, and we've never seen anything like it... much less one so hyped as the new standard of awesomeness.

So, yes, I'm happy to debate style, what should go in holes, etc. 'till the cows come home. But none of that is relevant to this "route," because all such debate is about CLIMBING, and this "route" was none of that.

Captain...or Skully

climber

Oct 22, 2012 - 11:17pm PT

And don't mistake frustration for Hate.

BASE1361

climber

Yosemite Valley National Park

Oct 24, 2012 - 12:37am PT

Bringmedeath (jake) what have you climbed in the last 10 yrs? Last route with Pirate Jamie was your last climb?? Yet you act like some authority....

pelut espania

Big Wall climber

Espania

Oct 24, 2012 - 05:40pm PT

You are all so wrong with the lies and Bueyer slanders but keep on talking Americans we know it is A6 and you can not be as bold to do it as it was done.

Da_Dweeb

climber

Oct 24, 2012 - 10:54pm PT

You are all so wrong with the lies and Bueyer slanders but keep on talking Americans we know it is A6 and you can not be as bold to do it as it was done.

I do wish the _real_ Pelut would speak a few words about his thoughts on all of this...

Big Mike

Trad climber

Oct 25, 2012 - 12:32am PT

Why bother??? Nothing to say!!! Go climb the Empire State Building it will be a7!!!!

I'm over being nice. They aren't.

Da_Dweeb

climber

Oct 25, 2012 - 01:21am PT

Well Mike mostly it's just that I don't know as RH or this Pelut Espania troll speak for the ACTUAL Pelut.

It would be interesting to know if - on review of all of this - Pelut would have elected to do things differently than he did.

Big Mike

Trad climber

Oct 25, 2012 - 01:29am PT

I certainly hope so.... What was pelut's real taco name?? Gonna have to scroll back and find out. RH may think he is defending pelut but as Richard says he certainly ain't doin him any favors....

Da_Dweeb

climber

Oct 25, 2012 - 01:54am PT

Aye.

Maybe I'm giving Pelut the benefit of the doubt more than is warranted, though I would like to think he is reasonable enough to hold an honest and humble discourse on the matter at this point.

Ech, time will tell.