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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Oct 20, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
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I can’t believe that I’m still alive
Life is indeed a ball!
It seems I may prosper and even thrive
Throughout this winter and fall!
I carefully select a few glowing gems
That appear in this thread at times
Recycle them then, according to whims
And treating myself to my rhymes!
The husk of the mortal is then cast aside
Life eternal is near!
All that’s required is then to abide
By a strategy having no peer!
Sincerely, The Thread
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Oct 20, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
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You are not aware of the electrochemical events occurring at each of the trillion synapses in your brain at this moment. But you are aware, however dimly, of sights, sounds, sensations, thoughts, and moods. At the level of your experience, you are not a body of cells, organelles, and atoms; you are consciousness and its ever-changing contents, passing through various stages of wakefulness and sleep, and from cradle to grave.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-mystery-of-consciousness/
The universe is filled with physical phenomena that appear devoid of consciousness. From the birth of stars and planets, to the early stages of cell division in a human embryo, the structures and processes we find in Nature seem to lack an inner life. At some point in the development of certain complex organisms, however, consciousness emerges. This miracle does not depend on a change of materials—for you and I are built of the same atoms as a fern or a ham sandwich. Rather, it must be a matter of organization. Arranging atoms in a certain way appears to bring consciousness into being. And this fact is among the deepest mysteries given to us to contemplate.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-mystery-of-consciousness-ii
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 20, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
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Cintune, once again you've warmed my heart.
.....
Consciousness, Part II
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-mystery-of-consciousness-ii/
How is it that unconscious events can give rise to consciousness? Not only do we have no idea, but it seems impossible to imagine what sort of idea could fit in the space provided.
Note that this stance, which btw is one that I share, does not preclude the acceptance of ( let alone rule out) the mechanistic mind-brain model as the most reasonable one - for employment in critical decision making concerning one's "practice" of living.
.....
Haldane,
"What intelligible account can the mechanistic theory of life give of the…recovery from disease and injuries? Simply none at all, except that these phenomena are so complex and strange that as yet we cannot understand them. It is exactly the same with the closely related phenomena of reproduction. We cannot by any stretch of the imagination conceive a delicate and complex mechanism which is capable, like a living organism, of reproducing itself indefinitely often."
Sam Harris,
"Scarcely twenty years passed before our imaginations were duly stretched. Much work in biology remains to be done, of course, but anyone who entertains vitalism at this point stands convicted of basic ignorance about the nature of living systems."
Hear, hear. ;)
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MikeL
climber
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Oct 20, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
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HFCS said: . . . to whom are you speaking? For there are no advocates of "scientism" here - at least none whose posts are worth anything.
If you know of anyone who is "scientistic" in his thinking point him out and we shall in turn point out to him that science is incomplete.
What, are you the thought police or something?
Sounds pretty rough.
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MikeL
climber
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Oct 20, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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Science is the epitome of the use of reason that has gone too far.
Cartesian duality posits mind and matter. The paradigm argues for an external objective reality, and it pits man (with an ego) against all of it.
Mind (centered by an ego) analyzes and abstracts out aspects internally and externally from a continuous whole by way of intellect. Aspects are constructed into concepts, emotions, feelings, etc. The mind then reifies the concepts.
Cognitive science posits that first there is some kind of pure awareness as a base, then raw sensation data are translated into perceptions, then perceptions are labeled or ascribed conceptually, then concepts are associated with the ego and assessed, and finally things like culture, social, and ethical considerations are added into the mix. These processes happen very quickly.
The use science or reason to investigate interior and exterior worlds is not the problem, per se, but the assumption that things / objects exist concretely and independently, rather than as a continuous whole.
Each of us has had a thousand experiences of hearing or reading a description or explanation of a phenomenon that we’ve known something about prior to the reading or hearing, and we’ve KNOWN that “it’s not really like THAT.”
It never is. Nothing is like “this” or “that.”
We forget that the objects we apply our reasoning to are conceits and conveniences. When people are serious and think that objects are independent and solid, then we're on our way to hell.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 20, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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Hey, it's a rough and tumble gridiron. You haven't been on the field very long, have you? Stick around awhile, you'll see. ;)
I repeat. Scientism is a straw man. I've never met anyone who actually "believes in" scientism. Or practices it. So the question remains, to whom or to what did you post?
Curious, you're a scientist, what is your science?
.....
Science is the epitome of the use of reason that has gone too far.
That is using a ridiculously large brush.
...not the problem, per se, but the assumption that things / objects exist concretely and independently, rather than as a continuous whole.
You note that this assumption has worked pretty well down through the generations. I for one am pretty impressed by the learning machine (aka control system) that is the mind-brain that's evolved over thousands of generations, that takes in data, analyzes it, perceives it, feels it, decides upon it and ultimately leads to us to make sense of our environment well and long enough to mature, reproduce and to even ponder these big questions.
We forget that the objects we apply our reasoning to are conceits and conveniences. When people are serious and think that objects are independent and solid, then we're on our way to hell.
There is (1) reality and there is (2) perception of reality, and I agree that it is important to understand them and to distinguish between them. Our mind-brains are extraordinary evolved learning machines. Much of what they learn are organized in terms of (representative) maps or (representative) models (for better or worse) that reflect the outside reality.
The mystery remains. How does the mind-brain produce consciousness in its many and various forms. I smell salmon on the fry right now, how does my mind-brain do it? perhaps our species will never know much more deeply than we already know in terms of data processing, action potential, memory and filters.
Food for thought.
.....
P.S.
MikeL (from a 17 march 2009 post)
"For those who believe that regular science describes reality, it is a naive point of view."
Now that's interesting. You say you're a "scientist?"
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
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The mind-brain does not produce consciousness.
The mind-brain can not act independently.
Material nature can not act independently.
Where's your mystery.
Only western gross materialists are in the dark and always PREACH "no one knows" or it's a mystery misleading everyone.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 20, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
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MikeL,
But I dig this post...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=842548&msg=846392#msg846392
It seems that the higher the level of education one has, the less one really understands about the broader context in which the world and we reside.
I would just add that for those passionate about all science and science education it helps tremendously to have both a physical sciences and a life sciences background to help map that "broader" picture as one makes his way forward.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 20, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
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The mind-brain does not produce consciousness.
So we disagree, what else is new? May the best model... in the end... rise to the surface... to bask in the glory... in the interest of better living. ;)
.....
Sam Harris,
"We would never have occasion to say of something that does not eat, excrete, grow, or reproduce that it might nevertheless be “alive.” It might, however, be conscious."
By some definitions, alive but not conscious; but by others, conscious but not alive.
.....
It is a remarkable and historic time now in mind-brain science. Keep the faith. Steel the confidence. More breakthroughs ahead.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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The modern scientific theory that the brain substance is the cause of all intelligent work is not valid.
The brain substance is only an instrument which has nothing to do with real intelligence.
No part of the body is important unless the spirit soul is present.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2011 - 12:36am PT
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Harris writes: ". . . an analysis of purely physical processes will never yield a picture of consciousness."
Quite naturally that is true since 3rd person descriptions describe objective functioning. What Harris makes clear is the 2nd law of Mind - that objective functioning and experience are NOT the same things, however closely they are related.
The really tricky part here is to find something that counteracts bottom-up causation (I have no idea what it might be), even though pinpointing the exact point where matter becomes conscious is probably as improbable as pegging the reason Jack's wife made him sleep on the sofa last Easter.
I have a sneaking suspicion that looking at the question of mind in terms of lower activity causing higher activity is itself flawed, but trying to imagine an alternative is one hell of a thought experiment.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2011 - 12:50am PT
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The seat of consciousness is the spirit soul which is located within the heart.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 21, 2011 - 01:14am PT
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Why speculate when you can build stuff?
The Cat is Out of the Bag:
Cortical Simulations with 10^9 Neurons, 10^13 Synapses
Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan, Steven K. Esser, Horst D. Simon, and Dharmendra S. Modha
http://www.lbl.gov/cs/Archive/news111609a.html
Thanks to healyje for the links.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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You're not building mind, you're building a computational tool. Nothing in ANY of those simulations even vaguely suggests 1st person subjective experience to say nothing of self awareness and self direction.
But by all means keep building, but we gotta leave off with the Frankenstein talk about sentience. And "emergent" models violate the 1st Law of Mind: Mind is not totally reductive to objective/mechanical functioning.
JL
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cybele
Trad climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Oct 21, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
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yes to emergent property model...imho
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MikeL
climber
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Oct 21, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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Largo wrote: "objective functioning and experience are NOT the same things, however closely they are related."
Hmmmmmm, no, but the relationship should somehow be important, John. It suggests some notion of purpose. Experience should serve some kind of function.
Biology claims that the purpose of all life is reproduction and survival of the species. That purpose is purportedly programmed into life through genes. It's a theory at best, but one that we can run with.
The whole idea of "purpose" and "programming" assumes a grand intentionality. Perhaps "purpose" and "programming" are only metaphors, but then what is being pointed at?
An important element of mind is consciousness (you started this), and if anything, consciousness seems most importantly self-reflection.
Biologically, why would self-reflection be useful to the survival of a species? Because with self-reflection, a species can change its behaviors and adapt to environments. A species can also create its own environment to suit itself. (Neither is what Darwin argued.)
Self-reflection is not an obvious idea or process. Self-reflection itself demands self-reflection. Sit quietly and watch your mind. It's difficult and brings up many complexities.
There is an unmistakable pattern to the evolution of consciousness in mankind and in the development of human beings ontogenetically. The process and steps in both look identical. Patterns usually continue. To think that mankind's consciousness has reached its pinnacle of achievement seems an arrogant delusion. What's next? Where is our consciousness going? Are we driving its evolution, is it some mysterious biological non-linear process, or are we being pulled to some point ahead of us? Is there a purpose behind the programming? (Oh-oh.)
Be well.
Edit: I didn't mean to say that anyone in particular should sit quietly and watch their mind. I am suggesting an experiment that can lead to direct apprehensions in general.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 21, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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The whole idea of "purpose" and "programming" assumes a grand intentionality.
Hmmmmmm, not necessarily. Suggest you watch Dennett for a "broader" perspective...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9w8JougLQ
...where "purpose" and even "reason" are conceptualized, otherwise understood, in terms of evolutionary reverse engineering.
Blood clotting and injury repair are "programmed" into our genes.
The "purpose" of the Krebs cycle is to generate usable high energy molecules (e.g. ATP)
The "purpose" of the brain is to serve as controller for the body.
What's the "reason" for the beating heart? ANS To pump the blood.
Here, "purpose" and "reason" are easily understood in terms of (blind) evolution and reverse engineering (by biologists or by analytical bio-engineers).
Dennett,
"The 'reasons' that we invoke are reasons that are not represented in the mind of God nor are they represented anywhere until they're represented by the biologists that figure them out."
re: the "blind, unreasoning processes" of evolution
.....
what is being pointed at?
One answer: functionality for use in survival strategies and reproduction.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 21, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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Mind is not totally reductive to objective/mechanical functioning.
A sentiment similar to that of vitalism in regard to the nature of life.
The computer scientists are not trying to create a mind. They are just building on work done previously and looking at where it might lead. If neurons have anything at all to do with mind and consciousness then the simulations could help to clarify the issues even if they do nothing else.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
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perhaps Largo intended the OP title to be: "What isn't 'Mind?'" he seems rather close minded about the possibility that mind is a more general phenomena, certainly he has held a consistent viewpoint that "Mind" is not a physical phenomena, full stop, period, end.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
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Mind certainly does have a physical footprint. I used to glare at it for years doing EEG work (neurofeedback). The Law just says that 1st person experience is not entirely reductive to 3rd person functional modeling. This is such a basic rule that not even hard materialists argue about it any more for the simple and inescapable reason that 3rd person functional data IS NOT EXPERIENTIAL. It doesn't even talk about experience. Go back and read the post Fruity had about how matter in no wise suggests experience, in any way shape or form.
What's more, when people get crossed up with the law that mind is not totally reductive to objective/mechanical functioning, the argument that this is somehow a "sentiment" instead of an empirically-based law brings crazy talk about vitalism and Bergsonian Elan Vital stuff. Behind this is the belief that experience is a kind of "stuff" and that if it isn't entirely hooked to the meat brain said stuff must come from God or wu wu force fields or magical pumpkins. In fact experience is no more regular stuff than matter suggests consciousness.
Craig asks where "mind" comes from and I have always said that awareness is a non-thing, unborn, an empty and borderless field but that qualia (the "content" of mind) is almost certainly a product of the meat brain.
JL
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