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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Spot on Karl.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Why? Our government reported that NO ONE offered armed resistance during the operation?
Hey Karl, I'm not certain where you heard this, but the US press secretary said today that the seals were engaged in a firefight throughout the house.
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apogee
climber
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"...is it real or is it photoshopped? And where did it come from? "
Oh, cripes....here we go.
Who the feck cares about the images of OBL, besides maybe the bloodthirsty 'Christian' chickenhawks?
He's dead. Most everyone's happy about that. Time to move onto the high road.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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He was killed by modern day killers. They could care less about the politics. They were born to kill; if it wasn't OBL it would have been someone else. That killer gene was almost culled out of the gene pool during WW2. Both sides lost true gladiators in Europe during that period. All of those great warriors never had the chance to breed. F*#k the cause just war on. Let the puppets who think they run the show know that it will be their day soon enough.
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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From the Huffington Post:
The helicopter-borne raiding squad that swarmed the luxury compound identified bin Laden by appearance. A woman in the compound who was identified as his wife was said to have called out bin Laden's name in the melee.
Officials produced a quick DNA match from his remains that they said established bin Laden's identity, even absent the other techniques, with 99.9 percent certainty.
Maybe this belongs in the science/god thread …
99.9% probability means that one out of a thousand times, you’ll have a false positive – you’ll get a positive result from the test for a non-Osama bin Laden.
The only way we can use the DNA evidence, and the 99.9% probability that it gives us, is in conjunction with a prior probability. What’s the prior probability that this was Osama bin Laden, as the official and Huffington Post say, “in the absence of the other techniques”?
Well, for the DNA to match, he must have been a human. If you tested all of the 7 billion humans on the earth, you would expect to get 7 million false positives (1 out of every 1000 non-Osama bin Laden humans) and one true positive (Osama bin Laden). So, given the result of the DNA test, “in the absence of the other techniques”, our new expectation, after the test, would be that there was a 1 in 7 million chance that this was Osama bin Laden. Not very convincing odds?
What’s the prior probability that it was Osama bin Laden, before they did the DNA test? We just make it up, using whatever incomplete information we have - incomplete information like what’s the probability that the government’s information was good (like their information on Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction), and what’s the probability that the government is telling the truth. Then we convince ourselves that we know what we’re talking about because we can’t see all of the hidden information that might show us that we don’t know what we’re talking about.
But hey, I’m a human, I believe it was bin Laden, I believe whatever my personally incomplete information (including media and government misrepresenting real information, personal biases, misinformation, faulty reasoning, etc.) tells me to believe.
Sometimes I think that we’re such survivor bias illogic geniuses, it’s surprising that we can fight our way out of a paper bag. But in our defense, I guess it’s the only game in town.
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jstan
climber
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There is probably no point in publishing a picture of Bin Laden. There would be if the right wing would accept something. But it is clear nothing is going to be accepted. So forget it.
Publishing the picture is rather like parading a corpse. Does not say much for us. It would be a negative.
Without a doubt we are going to supply allied governments with information. If there is a leak from one of those governments, so be it. The US can't stop that.
As has been speculated in the media special ops may be a mode of operation we will be using to replace invasions of countries. The best approach would be to do it in alliance with other countries. Particularly if protocols to resolve security problems can be found.
I also would not be surprised by high priority being given a new project to develop special helicopters for this purpose. Carter's choppers died because dust was drawn into the engines. The crews did not get out and put dust screens over the intakes while the choppers were waiting for the go ahead. In Bev Johnson's case I read it was a problem of water/snow getting into the intake. Should be solvable.
Each successive use will, however, meet increasing resistance and suffer more loss. Even as we bicker, forces protecting high value individuals have surely been redoubled.
If this all does happen there will be a major need for better in-country intelligence. The outing of Valerie Plame for political benefit will make recruiting onerous. Who would want to take such a risk?
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apogee
climber
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"but he's dead and i don't think we should make a spectacle of his body...that's not what we do...i have no objection to his ritual burial; we pay the same respect to executed murderers"
+1 bookworm
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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They were born to kill
I fundamentally disagree with that statement. In my view, killers are a product of a culture. They are trained to kill. Only a select few are truly "Born to kill." And even then, there are often environmental causes of their dysfunction.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Moosie wrote
Hey Karl, I'm not certain where you heard this, but the US press secretary said today that the seals were engaged in a firefight throughout the house.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/03/bin.laden.dead/index.html?hpt=T1
Posted May 3rd at 10pm on Cnn
"Osama bin Laden was not armed but did put up resistance when U.S. forces stormed a compound outside Islamabad and killed him, White House spokesman Jay Carney said Tuesday.....
...There were no armed guards around the compound, said a U.S. official who asked not to be identified because the official was not authorized to speak on the record....
One group went to a separate building in the compound; the other to the three-story building housing a family on the first floor and bin Laden and his family on the second and third floors, Carney said.
On the first floor of bin Laden's building, two al Qaeda couriers were killed, as was a woman who was caught in the crossfire, Carney said.
Continuing their ascent to the second and third floors, the commandos found bin Laden and his wife, both of whom were unarmed, in a room, Carney said. "She rushed one of the U.S. assaulters and was shot in the leg but not killed," he said. "Bin Laden was then shot and killed."
The U.S. official said bin Laden was shot when he made a threatening move.
In all, said the U.S. official who sought anonymity, five of the approximately two dozen people in the compound were killed -- the two couriers, the woman, bin Laden and his son...."
So, perhaps it's a little unclear. The story keeps changing but the current story has no-one firing at the seals unless you assume something
Edit: I see a report in the Financial Times with much of the above information that still claims where was a firefight in the house. Guess the details are still foggy as the link in my higher post points out. They must know what happened, they just haven't quite figured out how much truth to tell and what to make up.
Peace
Karl
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Missing photo ID#200571 Aprapos - like the royal wedding, and all that (short shelf-life) good riddance.
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jstan
climber
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Karl:
If you imagine a sizable group of armed personnel breaking a door down and rapidly going through all of the rooms there will be shots fired. A lot of noise and chaos. Particularly if no detailed floor plan was available. They had to get to all of the rooms before their target could withdraw to a hiding place thereby extending the time the force needed to stay in the building. Without a doubt they were under orders to get out in less than some set number of minutes. The experience in Somalia had to have been a factor in the planning. Where there was resistance it would have been dealt with immediately.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I'm actually amazed at all they did during 40 minutes on the ground (if it's true)
They had to blow their way through the wall, go through the whole compound, killing 5 and dealing with more than a dozen more people, collect 5 computers, 10 hard drives and 100 storage devices, and detonate their broken helocopter on the way out, while carrying Bin Laden's 6 foot 4 inch body. Busy!
Peace
karl
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Sad…while Bin Ladens’s death gets politicized and the Navy Seals and the President receive credits and commendations…our much maligned CIA isn’t getting much in praise or respect. Before the politicians and warriors could sever the head …the snake had to be found, positively identified and served as a target. That would seem a formidable and arduous undertaking.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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...our much maligned CIA isn’t getting much in praise or respect...
Well, it's taken them awhile to recover from the gross politicization and scapegoating of the agency by the Bush administration - there was a heavy loss of mid- and senior-level career personnel and a big influx of flunkies.
It will likely take another decade to recover from the combination of that abuse and the misguided decisions taken earlier to move the agency away from developing traditional HUMINT resources to focus heavily on COMINT / ELINT instead, as by 2000 we had very, very few HUMINT resources versed in Mideast languages and culture in either our foreign or domestic agencies. Hell, we couldn't even read, analyze, and interpret more than a fraction of the intel traffic we did collect. It'll take years to restore the capability.
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monolith
climber
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So, perhaps it's a little unclear. The story keeps changing but the current story has no-one firing at the seals unless you assume something
Are you kidding Karl?
U.S. military personnel arrived on two helicopters, attacked the residence and started moving methodically from room to room, said White House Press Secretary Jay Carney.
They were engaged in a firefight throughout the operation, he said.
It's not a stretch to assume "engaged in a firefight" means you are firing and being fired on.
They had to blow their way through the wall, go through the whole compound, killing 5 and dealing with more than a dozen more people, collect 5 computers, 10 hard drives and 100 storage devices, and detonate their broken helocopter on the way out, while carrying Bin Laden's 6 foot 4 inch body. Busy!
I think 24 of the highest trained and motivated people on the planet can do that in 40 minutes. Funny how you highlight his height but don't mention his weight. He was skinny Karl. You crack me up.
If this story was made up, as you hint, why would we say we killed an unarmed man? The Truther mindset is fascinating.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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What is done is done, and for those of us regular folks who have NO ability to affect scenarios to armchair quarterback is really an exercise in futility.
The fight for global supremacy, or even to hold on to whatever position a unit holds, or to recoup a drop in the hierarchy is far - far - beyond the capacity of any one of us Supertopians. Even Fattrad....
Governments do things which we cannot understand, for reasons we cannot comprehend.
Go one with the discussion, but if all those who do could concsiously make ONE effort today to positively affect another human being they come into physical contact with(hell, through in an overdue phone call or even sending an e-card), that will do more in affecting the way our world moves forward that much of the stuff being written in this thread.
“Be the change you want to see in the world.” - Mahatma Gandhi
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Coz writes
"Karl,
So, you understand suicide bombings, you're upset Osama wasn't taken alive.
Interesting!
Understanding is not condoning. and I'm not upset that Bin Laden wasn't taken alive. Just pointing out that it was doable (unarmed and the rest of the compound was cleared) and that the guy got a fast painless violent death, just the way he wanted. Folks seem to think capturing him alive would have been being nice to him. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Your spewings are base in little or no fact, you only imagine all we hear is lies.
I have cited MSM and other writings and previously acknowledged facts to back up everything I wrote. I can cite sources that we were deceived by the military regarding the incidents with Jessica Lynch, the falling of Saddam's statue, Pat Tilman's death, Iraqs WMDs, and other civiilian death incident in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As for Bin Laden, they've already had to correct bogus information that they originally reported. Like Bush used to do, the original information contained propaganda (Bin Laden used a woman as a shield and was armed) while the truth was different (the seal shot Bin Laden and a woman, both unarmed) People hang on to the first lie and don't notice the correct information later.
I am sorry but you siding and defending
a man like Bin Laden really rubs me the wrong way.
I have done nothing of the sort. I have pointed out how we've used him as a bogeyman and how we have ignored our own crimes, but that does nothing to excuse Bin Laden. This is all your projection.
I wonder why you choose to live in a country, that gives you so much freedom to live your lifestyle, and loath it so much.
Did you read my several paragraph's long response to you a few posts back. Screw yourself as#@&%e! I'm tired of you questioning my patriotism or suggesting I don't love this country. It take courage to speak out to keep the fine country from going down the tubes due to corruption and lies.
I was almost killed in 9/11, I'm glad the sh#t bag is dead.
I had a close friend killed on 9/11 too. That's why I'm concerned when it's used for Bullsh#t. Perhaps you didn't read one of the last links I posted that showed how Bush dropped two opportunities to get Bin Laden in the beginning and also at Tora Bora, Partly as a consequence of going after Iraq when they had nothing to do with it.
I respect and love my country, even though we blunder at times
Me too. Do you remember when Bin Laden stated his strategy for defeating the US? He said
"We, alongside the mujahedeen, bled Russia for 10 years until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat," bin Laden said.
He also said al Qaeda has found it "easy for us to provoke and bait this administration."
"All that we have to do is to send two mujahedeen to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al Qaeda, in order to make generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic and political losses without their achieving anything of note other than some benefits for their private corporations," bin Laden said.
I've been trying to defeat Bin Laden's strategy by speaking out against the Iraq war and other foolishness but it seems the "patriots" are on Bin Laden's side.. They guy lived to almost see his "Mission Accomplished"
peace
karl
Edit: My bad on one thing. My response had been to other "why do you hate America buddies, Bluering and Hawkeye" I'm reposting below for those who missed it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Reposting something I wrote to Bluering and Hawkeye but which applies also to what Coz has been writing me
Remember I was talking about the Iraq war now. Don't forget, Saddam didn't not attack us, wasn't about to attack us, and was the worst enemy of Islamic fundamentalists.
So is it somehow unamerican to question creating a couple million refugees, and over 100,000 dead in a country we had no legitimate beef with? Japan, Germany and Italy are great countries these days (relatively you must admit) but at one point they violently tried to force their empire on the world and did evil things. Aren't you, by not questioning your government's actions, lining yourself up with those Japanese, or German Citizens who went along with their government's violence and aggression. Even we had a revolution in the beginning of this country. I can hear you now if there was an internet then "Why do you hate your country England???!!!" and it wasn't like the England ruled with that heavy a hand and all the residents here considered themselves English in the beginning.
A patriot needs to be vocal to keep his country in truth as corrupt powers will always arise if not checked by the people.
So Bluering, these people in Iraq you call evil. Who are they exactly and how do we know them from the Good Iraqis? or are there none, and if so, why invade to allegedly help them (pump their oil or make sure it's sold in dollars) Even Bin Laden hated Saddam and wanted him gone. We did him a trillion dollar favor.
You all want to feel good about yourselves by feeling good about your country but it's not that easy. We're all mixed bags. By doing so we lie to ourselves. I will take pride in my criticism of both Bush and Obama, even if they were personable in their own way (at least on the surface with Bush)
You fall victim to the same trap that creates the extremists in the first place. They see the Palestinians oppressed by Israeli occupation or someone in their family killed in an US air strike, or suffer under a US supported King or Dictator and figure we're all evil and must be defeated. Do you blame them? Wouldn't you feel the same. Can't you stand in anyone elses shoes for a minute or do you need to be in bigoted self-congratulation mode since we killed another bogeyman that we used to pay to do the killing for us?
It's not a black and white world and it takes courage and honesty to see our strengths and our flaws
Peace
Karl
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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A nice read on "target killings".
"Adopting a position on targeted killings involves complex legal, political, and moral judgments with very broad implications. Targeted killing is the most coercive tactic employed in the war on terrorism. Unlike detention or interrogation, it is not designed to capture the terrorist, monitor his or her actions, or extract information; simply put, it is designed to eliminate the terrorist. More than any other counterterrorism practice, it reveals the complexity involved in classifying counterterrorism operations either as part of a war or as a law enforcement operation."
http://harvardnsj.com/2010/06/law-and-policy-of-targeted-killing/
Obama make the decision...I glad the scum is gone.
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