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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2012 - 01:59am PT
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just wondering why you drew a topo showing you're route going to the top without joining another route for the last five pitches. I'd think an Honest person would mention that in their topo.
You drilled a belay anchor in the middle of an A1 pitch of mine, you're 14th belay.
That's "your," since you are obviously in nit-picky mode now.
Wow, so ignorance of your recently-done route becomes an honesty issue on my part? Again, you didn't do it long before I did WoC, and I was unaware of it. My original topo reflects my unawareness, and my original topo DID note that the top two pitches were a ladder I didn't drill (you can BET I wasn't taking "credit" for THAT in the "climate" of that time!).
Unlike you, I was never a bowed-down-to-be-worshiped demi-god of the Valley. Decades of willful and intentional slander pretty much kept that from happening! (Thank God! LOL!) So you'll excuse me if I was not privy to everything taking place there in anything close to real time.
Hmm... fill me in a bit here, would you? If Mark and/or I had done multiple pitches of full-on drilling and named our route "Hole World," would WE have gotten kudos for it as you did? Just curious. Could YOU do any wrong in that era? Oh, and there was Shipley's "machine headwall." Yeah, guess those were "routes worth drilling for."
But, so as to not be accused of "dodging" (here's the "drama" again, and, note, the multi-decade critics are the ones that just can't leave the bone alone), I'll answer your specific question. My 14th anchor was at the end of a long pitch, so I ended the pitch where it made the most sense to me under the Pinnacle of Hammerdom. It wasn't A1 at that point of the pitch, as I remember, but, honestly, it's been too many years now for me to remember that anchor in ANY detail. I do remember that I was running the rope out during the whole route, as much as possible.
If those two bolts (that have no effect on the rating) get your panties in a bunch after all these years (nay, decades), I'd suggest getting over it. I didn't do you nor the rock any harm.
I was never your enemy. Why have you been mine over the decades? Why can't you let it go?
But, if you want to nit-pick, tell us your best, your PUREST, your most perfect route... the one that's still in pristine condition, so I can go do it and nit-pick comparably.
The big mistake some, like you, are making on this particular thread is floating the misguided claim that ONLY the "perfect" can "judge." So, the claim is: How dare Jensen set himself up as "judge," when he has been far from "perfect" himself?
What a joke. I've never claimed "perfection!" But any CLIMBER should be able to see that THIS was a non-climb, and that's what I reported. There's NO "nit-picking" to report that this thing was far, far beyond the pale... FAR beyond anything any of us have seen before.
What's always galled me are the "high priests" of "holiness" that claim the right to nit-pick every other route not done by them or their cronies, when THEY are not holy themselves.
If you can find ANY correlation between decades of THAT and what this thread has been about, then, there's nothing more to talk about.
*
Cross-post: Now Beyer is "bad-ass?" Wow... have I been warped into some alternate universe? Intifada was not even hard (and we repeated it very shortly after the FA, using exactly comparable gear), and he didn't honestly report what went on there. AND he trenched when it wasn't even remotely necessary to trench... even if you are (now) calling trenching all good BITD. WAS that all good BITD? Can we get clear even about that?
So, let's see.... we now have the current desert-rock "masters" calling Beyer a "bad-ass," and Crusher says that Pelut's bashing and bashing on the rock (removing kilograms) to OVER-drive a pecker that was bomber 40 hits ago... it's all good. No wonder Pelut is confused! I sure am! Guess I'm just nit-picking.
See my point from my previous post? We're ALL awash in inconsistency... such is the nature of aid climbing. Let's quit ripping at each other!
But Weak Sauce was not even a CLIMB, by any measure, and there's no inconsistency in saying that. My whole "report" on this thread. If THIS thing can't come under fire from ANYBODY in the climbing community (high priest status or not), then ALL talk of "acceptable" style is groundless.
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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Oct 22, 2012 - 02:54am PT
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Out of curiosity, I watched the video of the pecker being bashed in and also counted the number of hammer hits. I counted approximately 111 hammer blows on the pecker - there were probably more, since I likely mised a few. I'm thinking, ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN blows of the hammer is probably just like sinking a bolt. Really sad.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 22, 2012 - 05:47am PT
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It's funny how all of you aid climbers talk sh#t about each other. My route is harder then yours, my style is better then yours, it's endless. Why are some praised for taking out useless bolts and others are criticized for doing the same thing? Martyr's Birgade removed part of the captains compressor route. Who cares? Why do you guys all hate each other? Shitting on peoples ropes, ratting out people for tossing bag, what a joke.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 05:57am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 06:48am PT
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It's funny how all of you aid climbers talk sh#t about each other. My route is harder then yours, my style is better then yours, it's endless. Why are some praised for taking out useless bolts and others are criticized for doing the same thing? Martyr's Birgade removed part of the captains compressor route. Who cares? Why do you guys all hate each other?
It bears repeating.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Oct 22, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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madbolter1 uses Wikipedia to get approach beta in the Tetons?
That is beyond the pale.
or as he might put it: THAT is beyond the pale.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Oct 22, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Richard, you are questioning and accusing others of poor form and even at times yourself. I am curious if you and Mark really drilled bathooks instead of rivets or bolts on Ring of Fire?
How do you feel about people filling those holes?
Not trying to call you out on anything. Just curious as I hate bathooks and find them lame. I've just always prefered to fill the hole, with at least something.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Oct 22, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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I haven't been following this thread recently, so perhaps I shouldn't be commenting, but from what I've glanced over I'm amazed that this has gone to 600 posts. Seems to me that the issue, bringmedeath, well one of the big issues, is that the route wasn't repeatable. Not a case of "I don't like your rivet; will chop it and put in a bolt" or "I don't like your trenched head; will replace it with a rivet, how do you feel about that?" Rather, it's a case of the style in which the route was put up wouldn't support a repeat ascent. Who's heard of filling holes with wood dowels and then sawing them off? So here's my summary. Climb was done without regard to local ethics. Climb was unrepeatable. Jensen attempted SA. Jensen had to make choices about how to do the SA, or if an SA should even be done. Whatever choices he made, some on this site would find in it an opportunity to flame Richard and every noteworthy climb he has ever done. However, it is clear that the choices Richard made were reasonable choices that any reasonable climber might make. If almost anyone else had done the SA and made a report thereof, this thread would have ended long ago. LOD isn't A6+. LOD was done in very poor style. LOD is currently repeatable, although in a different form than existed for the FA. LOD isn't worth doing as a third ascent. Jensen, in his advanced age, was willing to attempt a route rated at the top end of the spectrum and finished it even when the climbing was ugly. Anything beyond that probably isn't worth the time to write.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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I hate bat hooks and find them lame.
I've just always preferred to fill the hole, with at least something
LOL
A bat hook fills the hole although temporarily. :-)
Richard .... nice interesting report/analysis of your desert climb .....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
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Thanks, Werner. Appreciated.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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As I've tried to express, there is no "purity" to be had in aid climbing. No matter where you happen to draw the line, including what you put into holes (including bat hooks), a large number of people will think it's "bad style."
To me the issue comes down to two primary points:
1) Drilling should be sustainable/repeatable! For example, bat hooks on El Cap rock should be good for decades (properly drilled), while they are simply not sustainable at the Fishers. Drilling that is not sustainable requires that subsequent ascent parties MUST climb with the drill, and that necessarily means proliferation of holes.
2) Routes should depend primarily upon natural features. THIS is what makes a route a CLIMB, as THIS is what "conforming to what the rock presents" is all about. The lines we draw about what counts have lots and lots of fuzziness! That's not a bad thing, as long as we're keep our debates focused upon what matters, which is to CLIMB (with the "conform" aspect foremost in mind).
With all the (good and useful) debate about style, we're debating WITHIN the rubric of CLIMBING. What distinguishes this "route" and the tactics employed on it, is that it's off the chart. It's off the spectrum of debate about CLIMBING, because there was virtually no attempt made on the part of the FA team to conform themselves to what the rock presented.
This was no "drilled headwall" or "overdrilled compared to natural placements" effort. On this "route," virtually every placement required the drill, and "features" were not even a significant consideration. When the troll Pelut (God knows?) says, "We put up a nice line," I have no, nada, zip, zero idea what that CAN mean. My SA "put up a much nicer line" with far fewer holes, and I still would not "vouch" for it! So the FA was indeed beyond the pale, and we've never seen anything like it... much less one so hyped as the new standard of awesomeness.
So, yes, I'm happy to debate style, what should go in holes, etc. 'till the cows come home. But none of that is relevant to this "route," because all such debate is about CLIMBING, and this "route" was none of that.
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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Oct 24, 2012 - 12:37am PT
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Bringmedeath (jake) what have you climbed in the last 10 yrs? Last route with Pirate Jamie was your last climb?? Yet you act like some authority....
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Oct 24, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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You are all so wrong with the lies and Bueyer slanders but keep on talking Americans we know it is A6 and you can not be as bold to do it as it was done.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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You are all so wrong with the lies and Bueyer slanders but keep on talking Americans we know it is A6 and you can not be as bold to do it as it was done.
I do wish the _real_ Pelut would speak a few words about his thoughts on all of this...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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Why bother??? Nothing to say!!! Go climb the Empire State Building it will be a7!!!!
I'm over being nice. They aren't.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:21am PT
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Well Mike mostly it's just that I don't know as RH or this Pelut Espania troll speak for the ACTUAL Pelut.
It would be interesting to know if - on review of all of this - Pelut would have elected to do things differently than he did.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:29am PT
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I certainly hope so.... What was pelut's real taco name?? Gonna have to scroll back and find out. RH may think he is defending pelut but as Richard says he certainly ain't doin him any favors....
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:54am PT
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Aye.
Maybe I'm giving Pelut the benefit of the doubt more than is warranted, though I would like to think he is reasonable enough to hold an honest and humble discourse on the matter at this point.
Ech, time will tell.
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chris v
climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:23am PT
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