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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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already this month ( it's only the fifth ) there's been one quadruple murder and two regular single-corpse murders just in San Bernardino.
Yeah, but those were almost certainly "gang related," and we all (including law enforcement) already know that nothing can be done about that sort of violence (it only escalates).
So, really, that sort of thing should be dropped right out of the statistics. It's more like background noise, and gun regulation is targeted at those people that are not part of the background noise.
You can't stop the deafening construction noise of a building going up, so you ticket the guy at a nearby stoplight who is playing the music a bit too loud in his car.
Yeah, works for me. Bring on yet more useless regulation and "enforcement."
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"Yeah, but those were almost certainly "gang related,"..."
Not according to those who "know":
http://www.pe.com/articles/san-761571-shooting-bernardino.html
Read some of the comments left by readers:
"Deuces is a family club not a gang."
"Deuces are not a gang. We are family"
A "family" who closes bars on a school night, and gets into a shootout with someone else's "family" before going home.
Welcome to San Bernardino.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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In America, people will get what they want. Just like pot smokers have for decades, or drinkers that started with hooch makin contraptions in the hills.
You're right. We should just give up. Chuck all laws out the winder. If murder is illegal, only criminals will commit murder.
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jonnyrig
climber
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I kind of thought food was the largest commodity? But maybe it's actually oil... both of which access is largely ensured to those with the most guns, naturally. Considering the propensity for this country to become sniveling pussies, we might not have guns around too much longer in the protectionist police state toward which we're trending. But that's ok, our politicians still have the biggest nukes.
I keep getting the feeling from people around me when I say the word "gun" I've uttered a dirty word.
That's pretty damn annoying.
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Adventurer
Mountain climber
Virginia
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I spent 10 years in the US Army and was deployed overseas for 7 of the 10. Afterwards, I worked as a defense contractor for over 3 decades and travelled extensively in the Middle East, Asia and Africa as well as Europe.
In all that time I came to recognize that America is one of the most violent societies on the planet. Much, much more violent than Europe where gun laws are the norm.
I don't think that this is a result of being either pro gun or anti-gun. I think it is simply the result of our obsession with guns as a society.
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jonnyrig
climber
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I doubt very much that the amount of violence we get to experience here is a result of what you call our obsession with guns. More likely, it's tied to a variety of other socioeconomic factors that have more to do with poverty, drugs, and gangs. Guns just happen to make expedient weapons, and the banning or other further regulation of them in an attempt at curbing the violence will fail miserably on its own. So how about curing the underlying causes of the violence?
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Adventurer
Mountain climber
Virginia
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"The US falls in the average category of homicides worldwide"
Only when the calculation includes a bunch of third world lawless societies such as many of the countries in the lower half of the map.
Try comparing the US with other first world societies and the growing group of civilized second world societies.
Any comparison of the US homicide rate with lawless third world societies is comparing apples with oranges so to speak.
And yes, I have been on foot through many of those African and South American countries. Have you???
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Brasil is a lawless third-world country? Ever flown on an Embraer?
Granted, Ipanema is a pretty wild place - rampant uncontrolled booty.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Regardless of first or third world count the USA is STILL in the average category and no where near first place might I add.
108th place out of 218 countries for murder rate. Average indeed. there isn't a first world country within 50 places of the USA on that list. American exceptionalism at its finest.
Ron, once again, what is your objection to making it illegal to sell guns to criminals and lunatics? Don't you want to make it easier to prosecute straw purchasers, who can currently simply claim they had no idea the buyer was a crook? It would even bring in more revenue to your store, both by discouraging the second-hand market, and by charging private sellers for performing the background check.
TE
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Not according to those who "know"
I was be facetious. The two articles I read both had the Berdo cops calling it "clearly gang related." From my decades living there, I recognize that's equivalent to a punt, read: We are not winning and cannot win the war on gangs, so you the public just have to realize that this sort of sh|t gonna happen sometimes. Whaaa, whaaa, whambulance.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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If murder is illegal, only criminals will commit murder.
Ridiculous.
Make violations of negative rights illegal, so that you have a legal basis to prosecute people that commit rights-violating crimes.
Making laws that are PRE-CRIME laws, to penalize the vast, vast majority of people who are NOT violating (and will never violate) anybody's negative rights; and you are doing NOTHING like making murder illegal!
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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IMO, trying to apply generalized homicide statistics to "The USA" makes about as much sense as applying the same broad brush to Africa or Asia.
With a landmass this large with so many different socio-economic disparities, local laws, such a broad brush is essentially useless.
There are plenty of communities here with massive firearm ownership that enjoy little or no violent crime. Likewise there are plenty of urban areas with strict firearm laws, far less "legal" firearm ownership, and murders happening every day.
I'd wager a guess that firearm laws have relatively little to do with the level of violent crime that afflicts an area. When you try to think critically about the thousands of reasons for people to kill other people, the availability of a specific tool or method to so is pretty low on the list since many alternatives exist.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Make violations of negative rights illegal, so that you have a legal basis to prosecute people that commit rights-violating crimes
Selling guns to criminals and lunatics is not a right.
TE
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crankster
Trad climber
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"Total Government Control".
What far rightwing, extremist nonsense.
Stoke the fear, sell the guns & ammo.
That's why they are known as gunNUTS.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Selling guns to criminals and lunatics is not a right.
Nobody is seriously debating that point.
Most of the state-level (and attempted federal-level) gun laws are about restricting types of guns and magazine sizes, and that sort of thing. I think that those sorts of "pre-crime" laws are what we "gun nuts" find odious.
Is a fifteen round magazine instead of a thirteen round magazine a right? What about a thirty round magazine? What about a two round magazine? What about a no round magazine?
We have a right to guns and the magazines of ammo to fire them. Is a law that limits magazines to 15 rounds "infringing" on that right? There are slippery slopes everywhere you look with these sorts of questions.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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What far rightwing, extremist nonsense. Stoke the fear, sell the guns & ammo. That's why they are known as gunNUTS.
There are more guns (and ammo) in citizen hands now than ever before, and record numbers of us are getting permits to concealed carry. Is this "nutty" or well-motivated?
I went to a class earlier today to get my Utah non-resident CCW, and there were at least 60 people in the class to get their Colorado CCW; at least 20 stayed on for the second segment for the Utah part of the class.
That was one night. That particular class is offered on a weekly basis. It is just one of dozens and dozens of such classes being offered on any evening in Colorado. The Sheriff of my county has stated that his office is processing by far the highest volume of permits he has seen in his entire law-enforcement career, and every other Sheriff is reporting the same trend. It's a tidal wave of new permits, particularly in the last two years, and it's only increasing.
Ron sees wildly increasing sales, and that trend is nationwide. And approaching 70% of the public now believes that guns make people safer, which is the biggest swing from an about even-split in decades. What you see as "nutty fear" is really people starting to feel empowered and willing to become more individualistic and self-responsible (including for their own public safety). The cynicism regarding government is deep and wide, and it's percolating. And people are about sick of cops that show up long after incidents are played out, because that's all the cops are really capable of doing.
Oh, and the cops ARE spending most of their time issuing speeding tickets as their preferred form of "protect and serve."
Or, or the cops are brandishing military-grade weaponry AT the citizens.
If you see "gun nuttery" as "far right wing," then the irony is that the "anti-gun nuts" surround themselves (and their kids) with armed men, even as they try to disarm the average citizen.
Who is really afraid?
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jonnyrig
climber
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Can you take some time to please post up all the articles related to vehicle accidents involving injury too please? Just once?
Why not?
Because you don't f*#king give a rats ass about those. That's just an accepted risk. No, you choose to get all fired up about guns. What's the going accident rate these days, statistically, compared to autos?
Yeah yeah yeah, same old apples to oranges bullsh#t. Meh.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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JB, does travel to Canuckistan count? Can't wait to go visit the rels in
Barrie in a month - true life trailer bark boys! I wonder if it will be
above zero by then? I'm hoping the bro-in-law will let us take the family
elephant gun* to the range. I must admit I'm a bit apprehensive of putting
a 60 cal to my bad shoulder. Maybe we can load some lite loads.
*It originally was made for either Martin or Osa Johnson when they were
exploring Kenya in the 20's. They gave it to my father-in-law, an old
Africa hand himself.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Got limestone? (last October)
BTW, knott Lake Simcoe.
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