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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 26, 2015 - 11:29pm PT
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So when you have a chance, as I continue reading and responding to your previous post, please tell me - clue me in - where (edit: either) my reading comprehension lacks (edit: or my stance regarding free will or determinism or moral responsibility is askew) relative to the Strawson piece. Much appreciated.
ref:
"you're reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired... perhaps you might re-read the piece in the link I provided up above..." -Ed H
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 26, 2015 - 11:45pm PT
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feralfae, I did not imply a refutation of the Many World's interpretation. In some ways, the many interpretations of quantum mechanics was a process to come to grips with it. Ultimately it worked so well that physicists decided it wasn't an important question, "why does it matter?"
However, in these interpretations, and in the various paradoxes, one clear thinking physicist worked through the formal arguments of the implication of those challenges. That would be John Bell. Bell's theorem, and other work, provided a way to test whether or not the universe was "quantum mechanical" or just a "classical" universe hiding under the apparent "quantum mechanical" description.
The experimental tests of Bell's Theorem come out in quantum mechanic's favor... so what are we to make of that? Bell himself was for throwing out "locality" but most physicists if they are pressed would throw out the notion of "realism;" that our theories had to correspond to what "actually occurs" in nature... nearly a century of quantum mechanics and it's exquisite predictions would lead you to think that maybe you don't care to have a "sensible" interpretation when you know how to calculate.
For Einstein it was ultimately his aesthetics that lead him to the belief that quantum mechanics could not be the "final theory." While that may be true (who knows) it won't be for the reasons that Einstein proposed.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 26, 2015 - 11:50pm PT
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HFCS: '...the only ones who think the issues surrounding "free will" are not resolved are the noobs... in other words, the "weekend" opiners.'
Galen Strawson "...The facts are clear, and they have been known for a long time. When it comes to the metaphysics of free will... It seems that the only freedom that we can have is compatibilist freedom. If – since – that is not enough for ultimate responsibility, we cannot have ultimate responsibility...The debate continues; some have thought that philosophy ought to move on."
"Suitably developed, this argument against moral responsibility seems very strong. But in many human beings, the experience of choice gives rise to a conviction of absolute responsibility that is untouched by philosophical arguments. This conviction is the deep and inexhaustible source of the free will problem: powerful arguments that seem to show that we cannot be morally responsible in the ultimate way that we suppose keep coming up against equally powerful psychological reasons why we continue to believe that we are ultimately morally responsible."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 12:01am PT
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I've got to get to bed. But in my quote, which I stand by, I'm referencing free will in itself (for starters), not its connection to moral responsibility (which of course adds additional layers of complexity and confusion to the phenomenon).
Sure, we could talk about that, all of it, ala Strawson, but again that is not what my statement represented.
You would do well to watch the Sam Harris lecture (avail at youtube) before we continue if for no other reason than to give us some common ground (via a third party or its useful clear concise language) for further conversation.
The subject is a difficult one. Not unlike evolution and natural selection in some ways. Which is precisely why it's clear in subject matter to some (those studied in it) and not to others (the so-called "weekend opiners"). That was the point of the earlier post. There is a great deal of confusion in public regarding evolution, regarding climate change (as I think you know), regarding free will (determinism too) (as I know) that varies widely across the population depending on exposure to the subject. Again, that was the point. One you apparently decided to take issue with.
By simply pasting a couple snipets from a Strawson abstract, you do not make the case for your initial claim.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 27, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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Sunny again today. Let us know when the season finale of The Bickersons is over.
Im with Moose and Fae on this. we're plastic, made to evolve throughout our lives. ive already lost touch with several former selves. Others are who they are (in the present moment). to expect anything different is projection. energy is better spent trying to understand and connect with them.
It is written.
On the Taco.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 27, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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It's all just a mental exercise, although giving up the idea of free will was liberating. I noticed some changes already, those Asian drivers don't piss me off that much anymore! More work needs to be done, but I am optimistic I can completely free myself from negative thoughts toward other people and my self.
Freeing yourself of negative thoughts toward other people is a good goal. However...
there is a difference between having them and acting on them
and
your justification for giving up negative thoughts seems like it would apply to positive thoughts, too.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:05am PT
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it does not. we evolved to be biased towards positivity - its healthier.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:15am PT
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we're adaptable moment by moment, not just over longer periods. how many personas are packed into a single person? consider how much yours changes on a dime when relating to an SO, a coworker, a boss, a dog, a stranger...
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 27, 2015 - 11:26am PT
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BTW, Seattle receives the exact same amount of sunlight as any other spot on earth - just not quite the intensity as points south.
This may be why we don't look like desiccated horse tackle by age 50 ;) Low angle sunlight makes things look purtier, too.
Don't get me wrong - I love all the West's environments.
But when you can drive 10 minutes, hop into a 14' Whitehall, row out in the Sound in bright sunshine, crepuscular storm clouds over the Olympics and Mt. Rainier in the distance, get overflown by a bald eagle under attack by a flock of seagulls, and have a 1500' sea lion surface right in front of your boat - all before dining at the local Turkish restaurant with your happily married gay friends, without fearing arrest for that happy cabbage you left in your glove box, well...
...it grows on ya.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 27, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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It must be "T" shot day
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 27, 2015 - 11:45am PT
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Never drink the stuff.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
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re: tvashfruit...
I do think it's pretty hilarious that an English teacher of all people could confuse us. Doubly hilarious that she's apparently so confident about it too.
"as far as his avatar goes, I still believe he is Tvash also. I don't post much here anymore because he and his other avatar dominate both threads... Until tvashfruit has studied philosophy and history as extensively as our two philosophy professors and klk (history professor), he has no corner on free will." -sul
Yeah, that's expertise on several points.
**
Then there's this gem she posted about a month ago. Of course she later deleted it. But I was able to find it on the dark side...
"Due to the over-posting of an individual here using two avatars in the same thread, I looked up adult Aspergers, only to discover that those with the condition have a hard time with fiction. They can't comprehend figurative language or sarcasm. Perhaps this is why they are always touting crappy nonfiction here and can't shut the f*#k up between posts." -sul
Gee, that's classy. /sarc
A motley crew here fer sur. ;)
PS
I'm going to shut the f*#k up now between posts. :)
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 27, 2015 - 03:19pm PT
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This isn't the first (or second, or third) time I've witnessed the weird 'You're really someone else!' thing. I'm not what emotional needs such behavior meets, but it's always good for a bit of a chuckle. I am surprised how undiscerning a person must be with regards to personal styles to be willing to make a fool of themselves on a public forum with such a schtick, however.
Some folks grab little to no data and just run with it. A PhD doesn't appear to provide prophylactic relief for this.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 27, 2015 - 04:39pm PT
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Your subconscious is smart, Moose. It was probably your less reliable conscious mind that came up with the justification for your choice.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
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You're really someone else!' thing
Both the Tvash dude and HFCS suffer from a sort of generalized insipidness, rendering them indistinct from not only one another but from swarming legions of identical others of similar personality. They function as a type of generic "hive mind" in which , try as they might , their individual natures are haplessly forfeit and darkly submerged in service to a greater good to be realized in simply "belonging".
In short, they are the same virtual person.
The Skully-woman was somehow able to grasp this truth intuitively.
LOL
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 27, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
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Perhaps this is why they are always touting crappy nonfiction here and can't shut the f*#k up between posts
Wow, being a devotee of fiction literature seems to trigger excessive hostility toward beaker boyz. One should strive for moderation (Buddha).
Some folks grab little to no data and just run with it. A PhD doesn't appear to provide prophylactic relief for this
Sullly has a PhD? Good for her.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 27, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
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The Colossus speaks.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
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OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Mar 27, 2015 - 09:58pm PT
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Ed:
feralfae, I did not imply a refutation of the Many World's interpretation. In some ways, the many interpretations of quantum mechanics was a process to come to grips with it. Ultimately it worked so well that physicists decided it wasn't an important question, "why does it matter?"
Yes, Ed, I understand. I have some reading and thinking to do. Thank you.
Thank you all for letting me come and have recess with you. My new porcelain clay is here, arrangements are negotiated for two reduction firings in separate kilns with their own characteristics, and it is time for me to go make mud pies and listen to birdsong. :)
I return to throwing my life away. :)
namaste,
feralfae
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
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Listening to music enhanced the activity of genes involved in dopamine secretion and transport, synaptic function, learning and memory. One of the most up-regulated genes, synuclein-alpha (SNCA) is a known risk gene for Parkinson's disease that is located in the strongest linkage region of musical aptitude. SNCA is also known to contribute to song learning in songbirds.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150313083410.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150327090905.htm
Playing music enhanced the activity of genes involved in dopaminergic neurotransmission, motor function, learning and memory. Some of the up-regulated genes like SNCA, FOS and DUSP1 are known to contribute to song perception and production in songbirds suggesting a potential evolutionary conservation in molecular mechanisms related to sound production across species. In addition, several of the up-regulated genes are known to be involved in biological pathways like calcium ion homeostasis and iron ion homeostasis that are essential for neuronal function, survival and neuroprotection.
If you can't sing then stomp your feet
If you can't stomp your feet then beat on an old round Quaker oat box, think of it as a kind of drum,or maybe a cardboard bongo.
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