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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
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http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/belgian-lawyers-to-charge-barak-and-livni-for-war-crimes-1.297920
Published 19:27 23.06.10Latest update 19:27 23.06.10
Belgian lawyers to charge Barak and Livni for war crimes
Two Belgian lawyers, working on behalf of a group of Palestinians, plan to charge 14 Israeli politicians, including Ehud Olmert, Ehud Barak, Tzipi Livni and Matan Vilnai, for crimes against humanity and war crimes.
By Danna Harman
Tags: Israel news Ehud Barak Ehud Olmert Gaza
LONDON - Two Belgian lawyers announced on Wednesday that, working on behalf of a group of Palestinians - including, significantly, one who is a Belgian national - they were intending to charge 14 Israeli politicians, including Ehud Olmert, Ehud Barak, Tzipi Livni and Matan Vilnai, for crimes against humanity and war crimes.
The lawyers, Georges-Henri Beauthier and Alexis Deswaef said they were acting on behalf of 13 Palestinian victims from Gaza, and an additional man - Anouar El Okka, a Belgian doctor of Palestinian origin.
The current charges would be brought against the Israeli leaders using the principle of universal jurisdiction, the lawyers said - and would focus on alleged crimes, including the use of phosperous, committed during the Israeli bombardment of Gaza in January 2009.
Defense Minister Ehud Barak.
Photo by: Tomer Appelbaum
In Belgian, the law states that there must be a connection between the crimes and a Belgian citizen in order to successfully prosecute under universal jurisdiction - something El Okka would supply.
This is not the first time the Belgian system has been asked to charge Israeli with such offenses. Just last year, Belgian attorneys, acting on behalf of Belgian nationals with relatives who were wounded or killed in Gaza, petitioned a court there to arrest then Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni upon her arrival in Brussels. However, in that case it seems the connection between the victims and Belgium was not strong enough to follow through with the case.
The most famous case to date involving Belgium and Israel was in 2001 when there was a criminal complaint in Belgium on behalf of 21 survivors of the 1982 massacre at the Shabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut. The then Israeli Defense Minister (Ariel Sharon) and members of the Lebanese Christian militia were charged with war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. It was after this case that the law was changed to include a clause about a Belgian connection.
This was far from the only negative attention to Israel in Europe this week.
In Strasbourg on Wednesday, the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly was expected to issue a condemnation of Israel’s behavior over the flotilla events and call for an independent international investigation.
The President of the council Mehemet Kavasgholu, a Turk, told a Turkish newspaper last week that he would not only demand such an investigation but would also set up the investigation under the council’s auspices, something that lies within their mandate.
MK Yochanan Plezner, chair of the permanent Israeli delegation to the Council said yesterday that he and his team were hoping to avoid such an outcome.
“They will no doubt condemn Israel but our goal is to ensure that an independent international inquiry is not established, and that the council makes do with the Israeli commission,” he said.
Plezner added that it is very clear the mood in Europe was increasingly unfavorable to Israel.
“There is definitely a more critical mood and we see this mainly with out friends and allies who are less willing to stand alongside us,” he said. “And, our foes are becoming more adept at exploiting the liberal discourse against Israel....so it is becoming less politically correct to support of stand by Israel.”
In Sweden meanwhile, dockworkers launched a week-long boycott of cargo to and from Israel to protest the flotilla episode. About 1,500 members of the Swedish Dockworkers Union began the boycott on Tuesday across the country's ports, which handle more than 95 per cent of Sweden's foreign trade.
Bjoern Borg, the dockworkers union's chairman, said they were calling for an international investigation into the May 31 raid and added Israel's recent easing of its Gaza blockade was insufficient.
"We don't think it is far-reaching enough," he said. "We want them to lift the blockade."
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 23, 2010 - 03:34pm PT
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I'm surprised you haven't started a new C of C thread.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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"So we can add Jon Voight to the list of people, like FatTrad, who believe that all US domestic and foreign policy should revolve around Israel."
well, it's got to revolve around SOMETHING so, in a sense, yes
let's imagine a world without israel (i.e. eliminate the israeli government, allow palestinian 'refugees' to return, and hold new elections for a new nation)...now what would that look like?
1. of course, first comes the bloodbath as palestinians seek their revenge
2. of course, second comes the next bloodbath as the various palestinian factions erupt in civil war
3. maybe three years before the lush, vibrant former nation of israel is just a memory as infrastructure collapses from neglect; fertile fields left fallow are consumed by the desert that the JOOOOOOOOOS previously turned into a land of milk and honey; and the immense wealth of the israelis is wasted on bombs and burkas
4. neighboring nations, seeing an opportunity not to be wasted in the palestinian crisis, sweep in to reclaim lands "stolen" from them by the un in '48
5. war threatens to erupt as egypt, jordan, syria, and lebanon dispute borders
6. on a positive note, iran, no longer threatened by the JOOOOOOOOOS, dismantles its nuclear arsenal, converts all reactors to purely energy production, adopts a more secular worldview, rejoins the community of nations, increases oil exports to lower prices and ease the ongoing financial crisis, and becomes a leader in promoting human rights sdcf mop hahahahahahahahahahahaha...i'm sorry, i can't keep that up...ok, ok, really
6. iran, no longer able to use the JOOOOOOOOOOOOS as justification for its international belligerence, instead, recalls its glory days under cyrus and darius when the persians ruled the world and finds a new satan in the sunnis and announces that its missiles are now aimed at saudi arabia and demands restitution for the saudis' collaboration with the real satan
7. russia, understanding perfectly the teeth in iran's bark and with absolute confirmation of the saudis' isolation--since america allowed the only free democratic nation in the region to be consumed--puts the squeeze on eastern europe by slowing the flow of natural gas, signs a mutual protection treaty with iran trading munitions technology for oil, and begins to "persuade" former soviet bloc nations to return to the fold
8. barry goes golfing (please note how i kindly gave barry a second terms because he's just so likable)
and on a previous run: i certainly don't mind a president taking a vacation, especially because i understand the president's vacations are working vacations...however, barry has played 39 rounds of golf in his first 18 months in office; bush played only 24 rounds in his first EIGHT YEARS!!!!!!!
barry goes on national tv to claim that the oil spill is as significant as 9/11 and then goes golfing the NEXT DAY???????
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 23, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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Like everything else Bush sucked at golf.
BrainWorm you are a pip. A deluded myopic pip.
By the way dreamer, the Jews didn't turn anything into milk and honey. They took the milk and honey when they took the land (and the water).
Palestine was a net exporter of agricultural goods looooooong before 1948.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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right, philo, your beloved un took prime real estate from a bunch of people who productive stewards of the land and gave it to a bunch of whiny bloodsucking joooooooooos
maybe dirt is right about there being no "clash" because it appears we've already lost:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026594.php
so when are the lib jesus haters going to start railing about the invidious influence of islam?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 23, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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Palestine was a net exporter of agricultural goods looooooong before 1948.
Do you have a reliable source for that data?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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maybe dirt is right about there being no "clash" because it appears we've already lost:
I say there is no clash because in fact there is no clash.
Islam has a problem with extremism, which is our problem now too. But that is not a clash between civilizations; if anything it is a clash with a faction.
Iran for example. The populace is not friendly to the extremist faction in control. The bulk of that civilization is not interested in a clash, so long as western powers like the US don't do something stupid like mettle, which is one of the reasons they hate us in first place (think back to the mettling that put the Shah in power; they remember that shit).
It's a simple lesson that for some reason we have a hard time learning.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
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here is the "civilization" that philo praises so highly and that dirt believes is equal to our own:
Putting words into my mouth now? Did I ever say such a thing?
(No, I never said anything like that.)
Jackass.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jun 24, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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"Islam has a problem with extremism, which is our problem now too. But that is not a clash between civilizations; if anything it is a clash with a faction."
which is to say, we shouldn't blame all of the nice germans for standing idly by as trainloads of jews rolled away to "work camps" never to return...not even the germans try that ridiculous argument, which is why it's illegal for germans to deny the holocaust
and i never hear libs decry specific "factions" of christianity when a single person murders an abortion doctor or protests homosexuality at funerals for american soldiers killed in combat...nope, it's always "christians"
i've heard some say that "radical islam" accounts for only 10% of muslims...well, there are a BILLION muslims in this world, which makes 100 MILLION suicide murderers (and 900 million more potential radicals); not only are the 90% overwhelmingly silent about the "faction" giving a bad name to the "religion of peace" but even more frightening is the number of libs (like barry's ag: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOQt_mP6Pgg ) who refuse to even acknowledge the threat of a "faction" numbering 100 million...or the number of libs who so eagerly decry "christian" bigotry but have not even a word of criticism for muslims who execute homosexuals or mutilate their daughters genitals (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-05-20/ayaan-hirsi-ali-on-injustice-of-female-genital-mutilation/); or murder their daughters for "honor" (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=24329 ) or murder american soldiers on american soil...rather, libs seem more concerned about not "offending" the "muslim world"; of course, libs aren't worried about offending christians because even libs understand christians are not a threat
do you believe that if the "faction" succeeds in their goal of a global caliphate that the 900 million peaceful muslims will finally decide to resist? they won't because they'll be too busy trying to kill each other to determine whether the caliphate is sunni or shia
did you read the article (see my post above)about christians who were arrested for distributing bibles near a muslim organized event? that's a violation of their first amendment rights...did you hear about it on nbc, abc, cbs, msnbc, cnn? do you even care?
i've said before that the clash isn't really with a foreign civilization but within our own civilization thanks to people like philo who believe america is the evil empire (with israel as our evil henchman) and dirt who believe there's no cause for concern (thanks for clarifying your position, dirt) even when american citizen members of the muslim "faction" are committing these atrocities on american soil
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
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There is no serious strategic islamic threat to the US outside of the minds of rightwing drama queens. In reality islam would itself collapse under a shia / sunni war before you could say 'caliphate'. The only credible strategic threat is the Chinese who we have completely ignored while tilting so many dustdevils in the desert and draining our economy to do it.
You want to stop MidEast-sourced terrorism? Then solve the Israeli/Palestinian problem - everything else (like Afghanistan and Iraq) are lame attempts to workaround THE only MidEast problem that counts.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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and dirt who believe there's no cause for concern (thanks for clarifying your position, dirt)
Once again, I NEVER said that. I said Islam has a problem with an extremist faction which is now our problem too. How does that = "no cause for concern "?
A "Clash of Civilizations"implies that there are intractable, civilization-wide differences making conflict inevitiable. There is no such thing, though neocons love it as a narrative.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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well, there are a BILLION muslims in this world, which makes 100 MILLION suicide murderers
If there were even a million suicide murderers we would all be dead by now.
Jeez, you really believe this stuff?
Edit: and sh#t, what a rant you started.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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No, they wouldn't. It would all be muslim-on-muslim action and we would be peripheral to that conflict rather than central to it as we are so long as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict continues unabated on our dime.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jun 24, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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solve the conflict? easy, let the palestinians know that america will support ANY action israel deems necessary to deal with hamas...why don't we hear anything about the west bank anymore? because they have realized cooperating with israel leads to a good life for all...think israel is evil? ask the nearly one million ARABS who are citizens of israel
actually, dirt, i was using other people's statistics who try to MINIMIZE the threat with their 10% assertion...and when 900 million "peaceful muslims" allow a 10% minority to dominate their religion then there is a "civilization-wide" difference that has already led to conflict...how do you think the nazis took over germany? how do you think the taliban took over afghanistan? how do you think the ayatollahs took over iran? how do you think a nation as westernized as saudi arabia still suffers under morality police? how do you think hamas is able to control gaza? ALL are/were "factions"
look at what a "faction" can do: http://www.wikio.com/video/die-martyrs-3492393
where is the outrage from the 90% of "peaceful" muslims? or american libs for that matter?
ok, perhaps you think, "they're just kids; they don't know what they're syaing"...well who's going to teach them to think differently? the same "peaceful" parents who videotaped their adorable kids and proudly posted the video on youtube? and what happens when the children are indoctrinated this way? if these were christian children, i'm sure you libs would be screaming about 'nazi youth'
so here's somebody older...a college student...receiving her education at an AMERICAN university:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fSvyv0urTE
she claims if she supports hamas, even in speech only, she'll be arrested by homeland security...what do you think she might suffer if she were to pbulicly condemn hamas? i'd say her reference to the "cross" would be far more likely
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
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actually, dirt, i was using other people's statistics who try to MINIMIZE the threat with their 10% assertion...and when 900 million "peaceful muslims" allow a 10% minority to dominate their religion then there is a "civilization-wide" difference that has already led to conflict...how do you think the nazis took over germany? how do you think the taliban took over afghanistan? how do you think the ayatollahs took over iran? how do you think a nation as westernized as saudi arabia still suffers under morality police? how do you think hamas is able to control gaza? ALL are/were "factions"
That's not a clash of civilizations. It is an extremist problem.
And again, if 10% were actual suicide bombers we'd all be dead.
But if you want a war then such talk works wonders for scaring people into one. It worked 7 years ago.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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I haven't seen that.
But in another recent "poll" taken last June most Iranians rejected the hardline conservative government. At least until/if we ever bomb them.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jun 25, 2010 - 09:57am PT
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pay close attention to paragraph 13, dirt:
June 25, 2010 12:01 A.M.
Faisal Shahzad, Jihadi, Explains Terrorism
Shahzad’s testimony undermines Obama’s efforts to ignore the dangers of Islamism and jihad.
Jaw-dropping court testimony by Faisal Shahzad, the would-be Times Square bomber, single-handedly undermines Obama-administration efforts to ignore the dangers of Islamism and jihad.
Shahzad’s forthright statement of purpose stands out because jihadis, when facing legal charges, typically save their skin by pleading not guilty or plea bargaining. Consider a few examples:
Naveed Haq, who assaulted the Jewish Federation building in Seattle, pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.
Lee Malvo, one of the Beltway snipers, explained that “one reason for the shootings was that white people had tried to harm Louis Farrakhan.” His partner, John Allen Muhammad, claimed his innocence all the way to the death chamber.
Hasan Akbar killed two fellow American soldiers as they slept in a military compound, then told the court, “I want to apologize for the attack that occurred. I felt that my life was in jeopardy, and I had no other options. I also want to ask you for forgiveness.”
Mohammed Taheri-azar, who tried to kill students at the University of North Carolina by running over them in a car and issued a series of jihadi rants against the United States, later experienced a change of heart, announced himself “very sorry” for the crimes he had committed, and asked for release so that he could “re-establish [himself] as a good, caring and productive member of society” in California.
These efforts fit a broader pattern of Islamist mendacity; rarely does a jihadi stand on principle. Zacarias Moussaoui, 9/11’s would-be 20th hijacker, came close: His court proceedings began with his refusing to enter a plea (which the presiding judge translated into “not guilty”) and then, one fine day, he pleaded guilty to all charges.
Shahzad, 30, acted in an exceptional manner during his appearance in a New York City federal court on June 21. His answers to Judge Miriam Goldman Cedarbaum’s many questions (“And where was the bomb?” “What did you do with the gun?”) offered a dizzying mix of deference and contempt. On one hand, he politely, calmly, patiently, fully, and informatively answered questions about his actions. On the other, he in the same voice justified his attempt at cold-blooded mass murder.
After Shahzad announced an intent to plead guilty to all ten counts of his indictment, the judge asked him: “Why do you want to plead guilty?” — a reasonable question given the near certainty that guilty pleas will keep him in jail for long years. He replied:
I want to plead guilty and I’m going to plead guilty a hundred times forward because — until the hour the U.S. pulls it forces from Iraq and Afghanistan and stops the drone strikes in Somalia and Yemen and in Pakistan and stops the occupation of Muslim lands and stops killing the Muslims and stops reporting the Muslims to its government — we will be attacking [the] U.S., and I plead guilty to that.
Shahzad insisted on portraying himself as replying to American actions: “I am part of the answer to the U.S. terrorizing [of] the Muslim nations and the Muslim people, and on behalf of that, I’m avenging the attacks,” adding that “we Muslims are one community.” Nor was that all; he flatly asserted that his goal had been to damage buildings and “injure people or kill people” because “one has to understand where I’m coming from, because . . . I consider myself a mujahid, a Muslim soldier.”
When Cedarbaum pointed out that pedestrians in Times Square during the early evening of May 1 were not attacking Muslims, Shahzad replied, “Well, the [American] people select the government. We consider them all the same.” His comment reflects not just the idea that American citizens are responsible for their democratically elected government but also the Islamist view that, by definition, infidels cannot be innocents.
However abhorrent, this tirade does have the virtue of truthfulness. Shahzad’s willingness to name his Islamic purposes and spend years in jail for them flies in the face of Obama-administration efforts to avoid naming Islamism as the enemy, preferring such lame formulations as “overseas contingency operations” and “man-caused disasters.”
Americans — as well as Westerners generally, all non-Muslims, and anti-Islamist Muslims — should listen to the bald declaration by Faisal Shahzad and accept the painful fact that Islamist anger and aspirations truly do motivate their terrorist enemies. Ignoring this fact will not make it disappear.
Mr. Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org) is director of the Middle East Forum and Taube Distinguished Visiting Fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University. © 2010 by Daniel Pipes. All rights reserved.
you can continue to blame america or israel or "the west", but that doesn't change the FACTS concerning how our civilization reacts to what our civilization does...israelis always protest when they believe their government goes too far; people are fired and pols are voted out of office...americans always protest and lament when our efforts result in civilian deaths; our soldiers are put on trial for their violations, real or perceived; our military treats the wounded, civilian and enemy alike; our government apologizes and offers reparations
and the "peace loving" palestinians? they danced in the streets on 9/11; they use children's tv to teach hatred of jews and glory in murder; they proudly proclaim their desire for their children to die while killing jews
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jun 25, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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fatty,
i admire the company you keep
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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I'm guessing you mean this paragraph bookworm:
When Cedarbaum pointed out that pedestrians in Times Square during the early evening of May 1 were not attacking Muslims, Shahzad replied, “Well, the [American] people select the government. We consider them all the same.” His comment reflects not just the idea that American citizens are responsible for their democratically elected government but also the Islamist view that, by definition, infidels cannot be innocents.
What's your point?
That all Muslims are on board with this nut?
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