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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Sal's Taco Wagon... the fastest colon cleanse you'll ever get.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Hardman, have you actually read any of my posts? I was Sean's partner. Jake Jones was there for a couple days. I went up the first arch with Sean, and when it got to about .14a (way past where so. belle goes out onto the face). We got shut down and came down. Went up the second arch, Harding's route, until right below the big bombay. Looked to be 5.14 for sure. We came down.
Went up the third arch, starting to get a little leary of climbing another dead end. After much awesome trad, at the end of the arch, we bolted, on lead a 5.11bish slippery dike, a little run, on lead. Most scared I've ever been belaying, for sure. Well, now we were out on the face, with numerous options available to us.
Do we follow the slight undulations and possible ribs left, or how about the ones in the middle. Should we link these little divots on the right of to that vertical rib over there and hope it goes somewhere?
Anyone who's been up there knows that the orange patina is the slickest rock on the planet. all it would take is ten continous feet of it and it would be over. So with much deliberation, we went down from the top. I'm glad we did. The line we wanted to take when we were underneath it, completely stopped after 500 feet. The barely there, but awesome line that went in, was very counterintuitive, and probably wouldn't have been even the third or fourth choice from below. But it is THE line, for sure.
Before any of the bolting of the upper wall, I went to work in T-Meadows.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Gene, nice examples. Why didn't those guys wait?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"First, this debate is taking place on a site where the average age is probably late forties. Is this truly representative of the greater "Climbing Community"???"
I promise you that if you reposted the very first post of this thread on RC.com, you'd get a completely different response. I've seen it in the past when the same ethics thread was posted on Supertopo and RC.com with it's wider, generally younger, generally Noober, crowd.
Not saying that's good or bad, but the future is on the way whether we like it or not.
Peace
Karl
I think it's really worth noting the difference between style and ethics, with ethic affecting the stone and style affecting the climbers. The intersection comes when folks feel like if a certain style is allowed, it will lead to more routes, which also affects the stone.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Thank you Karl, I respect that and I respect you !!!
Cracko
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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karl wrote: I think it's really worth noting the difference between style and ethics, with ethic affecting the stone and style affecting the climbers. The intersection comes when folks feel like if a certain style is allowed, it will lead to more routes, which also affects the stone.
Karl...first you have to say what is morally right or wrong.
Is it morally wrong to place a bolt on rappel in Yosemite...Numerous routes have rap placed bolts...My answer would be no.
Is it morally wrong to place a bolt in Yosemite or damage the rock with rurp's, pins, bashie, hooks, rivet and the such... like on numerous aid routes in Valley. Pitons and bolts have been and continue to be used in Yosemite to this day.
Again my answer would have to be no.
Ethics...a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction bplural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group c: a guiding philosophy d: a consciousness of moral importance
So don't bring ethics or morals into the equation...these guy did nothing that hasn't been done before in the valley and accepted by locals.
It's all about style...period.
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Owlman
Social climber
Montucky
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jihad.
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Mike Ierien
Trad climber
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"I have no respect for what you did, and it makes me sick to think about, it is rape...plain and simple."
I suspect that women who have been RAPED would take offense to such a statement that compares what they have endured to a rock climb.
A little perspective may be in order.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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To those that think the climb is a travesty:
Do you also the Beth's climb meltdown http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=551416 is a travesty? Since it was worked on top rope and not a traditional ground up route. Or is it only if you place bolts on rappel that really crosses the line? Serious question.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Wildone - I did see your posts; I read them all. In your first post you wrote:
Go climb it. It's awaiting a second ascent. Report back here.
I just thought it was ironic that we have yet to hear from an FA-ist who has redpointed
the pitches––let alone climbed the route in a push––in light of your challenge above...
Apologies in advance if I'm mistaken - and you actually redpointed the pitches yourself.
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Nick
climber
portland, Oregon
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Geeze, you guys really have your knickers in a twist. It's only rock climbing.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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I haven't climbed the upper headwall, beyond the two traversing dike pitches, as that was where my involvement ended on the project due to work. I've seen it once on the preview, didn't place any bolts-that was Sean and Doug. I wish I could have helped, though. The corners below were stellar.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Since Bob keeps asking me to admit the obvious I will. I, Bruce, do not like the the style the FA team used to establish the upper pitches of the route Growing Up (AKA Dumbing Down) on Half Dome.
Now, let us return to the real discussion which is why did they choose to use that style and was it appropriate for a new route on Half Dome?
Bruce
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kevin...nice post. Coming from someone who has been there...I completely understand.
Bruce...we have been discussing it...you just won't listen.
Doug explained his reasons...you refuse to see/accept them. That how I see it. So let's move on.
Your Dumbing Down comment is childish at best.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Karl...first you have to say what is morally right or wrong.
There is no right or wrong in morals. Morals either mesh or conflict with someone elses morals. Niether persons morals are more right or wrong than the other persons. You can have a concensus of morals that are aligned with your own, thats called a religion, and we all know there's only one correct one of those.............right?
Religions are a hot topic, and I'd guess this one goes 700.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Thanks Domingo, Orion, Impaler, and other younger climbers who posted up.
I've done a good number of difficult, necky, on site ground up first ascents using bolts.
I also have experience constructing top-down sport routes.
I've made it clear that my preference is for trad climbing, having been on gobs of it, primarily toting the sharp end in Tuolumne, and on Middle Cathedral on those routes that Warbler mentions. So this gives me some direct experience upon which to base a relevant opinion.
As it turns out I am dead on neutral with this topic: for me this is much like the evolution of art. We went from figurative painting to the Expressionists. People were outraged with that, because those artists, they didn't paint objects but they painted light. Then came Cubism which was a big departure; as the works began to include concepts of paradox, ambivalence, contradiction and so forth, sometimes producing what were thought to be grotesque images. Then came the Abstract Expressionists whose products were often the outcome of a dialogue and became an expressive medium of ideas alone: a total departure from the representation of things you would see out in the world. These transitions were frequently pretty rough in terms of acceptance by the artistic community. Many casual appreciators of art are still outraged by modern Art. This analogy with the development of art may be seen as a defense of top-down route construction.
In support of ground up traditional climbing Bachar once quoted the words: "If it's art, it's not for everybody; and if it's for everybody, it's not art". Apologies if I didn't get that quite right. This was used to indicate a certain degree of exclusivity and depth available only to those willing to do the work. At the time I thought it quite apt and I still do to this day. Oddly, as well as that works in support of ground up on-site climbing, it also applies to Modern Art. So the prism allows the light to flow from many directions
My first point is: art changes, and my second is, I am primarily interested in expressing my opinion, my vision, as a prime actor, through actions, and not so much through words and ideas.
So, I want to hear more from younger climbers who may be lurking. Because, I am well beyond my stride; I can no longer hold the steering wheel of a car enough to drive more than an hour. Nobody here is saving any stone for me as a canvas to express my engagement with risk while savoring the rapture of the steep. Conversely nobody is setting anything up from the top down, so that I may express elegant moves unfettered with the concerns of extreme risk.
We can't truly hear from future generations, but we can hear from those younger aspirants who are here now, right at the doorstep, whose dreams are beginning to stir, for this is their canvas, their clay, their stone.
Any more takers?
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Sean Jones
climber
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Hello everyone in the climbing world. A couple days ago, a friend called me and told me about this site and all that's going on. Until then, I didn't even know it existed. I'm amazed at how much spare time so many people have. Just imagine if we all put this much time and energy together and aimed that at a real problem in our world. One thing I've learned in life and hugely through marriage, is to think before I speak. Or at least to try to. That's why I haven't responded until now. You may have noticed that I did not use a nick name to post on this site. I have no problem with who I am. Some people who have posted on this site (throwing some pretty major blows my way), actually live in my home town yet hide behind a nick name. Next Thursday I will be at Sal's tacos and welcome you to tell me what you think in person. This is not a threat in any way. I'm a very nice person and would love to talk. That's another key lesson I've learned through marriage, TALK. I could sit here all night and write but have three kids to put to bed and lots of work tomarrow like always. One thing I really want to start with or better said, clear up. Doug didn't do anything to Half Dome or anyone in the climbing world. Doug had a vision of a movie and I had a part in that. I spent 4 1/2 months up there and had 4 different climbing partners help me througout that time. Doug helped fund us. I called all the shots on everything that happened up there. Please stop hammering on Doug period. The fact that his name is even on this post show just how little anyone really knows. As for me, I've been climbing for 20 years now and doing first ascents the entire time. I've done routes in every possible style except chipping and glueing. I've done multiple big routes ground up. Doing huge runouts, drilling on lead, on stance, (no hooks) and redpointing or shall I say onsighting all pitches in a day. I dispise the word PROUD being attatched to rock climbing. But have to admit to feeling very good about the way those routes went in. It was FUN. Another key word there and the one word I do like to see attatched to rock climbing most. After doing these routes, without a story or photos or any spray, I would march back out, sometimes deep into the backcountry with thousands of feet of line and retro bolt my own lines as to leave behind good climbable routes for everyone else to enjoy. Or shall I say almost everyone else ? I have huge respect for the people who have done the big scary routes in our world. I could just as easily sit here and bash them for Taking them from the majority of the rest of us and leaving them behind as deadly and poorly bolted. Take Karma for instance. At only 5.11d AO, it sits unrepeated for 20 years. 180 1/4 inch buttonheads lay rusting away on a very beautiful line. Yet noone climbs it. I didn't want my line to become litter up the back side of 1/2 dome. There's tons of that below the cables already. Tons of which we cleaned up on many of our trips out of there. If it sounds like I'm trying to defend mysel, I'm not. I knew this would be an issue to many. In the past people left there bold statements on the back side of 1/2 dome. This was my bold statement. To put up the most amazing and climable route on the face. A route that will actually get climbed by more than just a handfull of only the best climbers. And to install protection that wasn't shitty the day it went in. My son is 6 years old now and has been climbing and loving it for 5 of those years. He's been watching Chris Sharma lots on vidios lately and idolizes him. That's a good thing to me. As human nature kiks in, he's been asking me lots of questions like, Dad, who's the best climber in the world ? Dad, are you the best climber in the world ? the strongest climber in the world ? Dad, will I be the best climber in the world ? I've seen alot of things through climbing in 20 years. Lots of good and lots quite ugly. My response to him, M'so, why do you climb ? because I like it and it makes me feel good dad. M'so, are you a happy climber that's nice to other people ? Of coarse dad. Then you're one of many best climbers in the world already M'so.
What is climbing anyways ?
Why do we climb ?
What can we learn from this climbing ?
The way I see it, The biggest mountains in our world aren't really mountains at all.
Maybe we should start climbing them.
Peace,
Sean Jones.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: So, I want to hear more from younger climbers who may be lurking. Because, I am well beyond my stride; I can no longer hold the steering wheel of a car enough to drive more than an hour. Nobody here is saving any stone for me as a canvas to express my engagement with risk while savoring the rapture of the steep. Conversely nobody is setting anything up from the top down, so that I may express elegant moves unfettered with the concerns of extreme risk.
I'm not young Roy but I'll respond anyway... your post above almost bought a tear to my eye.
Sorry that you are dealing with your health issues and really wish you the best. Reading the above really makes me realize how wonderful I have it when it comes to climbing and that I still have my health to climb and satisfy my cravings for the sport that I still love to do after all these years. Hope it turns around for you and if there anything I can do to help let me know.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Tarbuster, a great post. I'm 24, so on this site I guess this makes me younger so Ill put my two cents in.
Ethics, it seems, are generally consistent within a crag or climbing area and are established by the individuals who develop an area. The majority of arguments arise because of inconsistencies within an area in the establishment of new routes, i.e. rap bolting in a area which has a tradition of ground up style. In the recent past we have "the path" sent by trotter as well as "china doll" sent by patz. Both are examples of a route being sent in different style and thus comes in conflict.
I think what gets everyones panties in a bunch is that when this inconsistency occurs one person is inflicting their style and ethics on other people and I believe this is a fare criticism. So what I say is that ethics/style should be dependent on location and the local ethics should be followed. Just one more opinion.
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Dusty
Trad climber
up & down highway 99
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Hey Sean,
Thanks for a thoughtful and intelligent post. I've done lots of your routes and always been impressed... Gates of Delirium in particular is bad-ass!!
Anyway, I think it's natural people would have strong opinions about a new route like this on Half Dome in a place like Yosemite, where everyone seems to feel a sense of ownership or stewardship or whatever. As for me, I haven't done your route yet obviously but am sure I will git up on soon, at least the first 8 or 9 (?) pitches of crack climbing before the business begins... probably rap around then.
I personally probably wouldn't have had the chutzpah or cajones or whatever to equip a free route up 12+ or 13 slab moves, especially on rappel, but maybe that's just because I can't climb slab that hard or I didn't have your "vision" and what not. I don't know maybe I would have reservations about rap bolting on Half Dome too, although I've rap-cleaned and bolted other scrappy little crags in various places... but they shore ain't Half Dome. In any case, my opinion don't mean a whole lot aside from making my entry into the community "dialogue" or whatever. You made your choices up there and I can respect that... don't know you personally, but I do know your routes and some of your friends in el P and they have nothing but good things to say about you. In any case I look forward to checking out all those 12a crack pitches and the 11b slab... sounds rad!
I don't know, maybe the route would have gotten popular and not been neglected as you feared, even if it didn't have finishing pitches out of the arch? If you placed good SS bolts I'm sure they would have lasted longer than most of the other mank up there regardless. Maybe it would have been better to let the slab pitches "wait" for a ground-up ascent? Whatever, it's all conjecture and opinion at this point really... hypothetical and sort of interesting, but not a lot of bearing on reality or the route you chose to create.
On another important note, sounds like Karma could use a re-equipping job!! Never been repeated, really?? Crazy... glad I never got on it in it's current condition in that case I guess!! Always been curious about that one...
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