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JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
Your bigotry...

Pretty strong language there.

Yes, it is. I don't do that lightly. I hope I'm misreading you, but your posts on Abrahamic religions seem to dump all adherents into one pot, which becomes the target of intolerant condemnation. If that isn't bigotry, then the definition changed a very short time ago.

John
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
You believe in God Jesus, isn't that right?

It's "God Jesus" for you, correct?

How's that for specificity?

.....

Your bigotry... j zarian

"Yes, it is. I don't do that lightly." -j zarian

For the record, I owe you one.

(At my choosing, of course.)

btw, I always get a kick when a religious person uses the word bigot or bigotry against someone who is NOT religious or theistic. The kick is from the irony of it. You should research its etymology sometime.

.....

your posts on Abrahamic religions seem to dump all adherents into one pot -j zarian

Well it's the nature of language and thought. Sometimes by necessity one must speak generally, other times one must speak specifically. But anyone who knows my views knows how incorrect your statement is, how little you apparently know me. Just earlier somewhere I referred to "fundamentalist Muslims" and "reform muslims" and "liberal muslims" and "secular muslims" and "Islamists". I don't know, seems pretty nuanced to me.

One more time...
your posts on Abrahamic religions seem to dump all adherents into one pot -j zarian

So give me a buju to go climbing in the sierra with instead of a syrian or albanian islamist any day!
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
Bernie is a very powerful voice for his issues and a very authentic character in many ways, but his scope is far too narrow to be an effect President. Additionally, he clearly knows that his core message, the thing that makes liberals excited about him, has no chance of going anywhere without a massive groundswell of support that carries far beyond the actual election. Obama, a far more widely appealing candidate and a better overall communicator, got completely stymied by Congress. Without a total sea change that radically changes the makeup of the House, we shouldn't expect anything different.

exactly
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
From the Online Etymological Dictionary:

1590s, "sanctimonious person, religious hypocrite," from French bigot (12c.), which is of unknown origin. Earliest French use of the word is as the name of a people apparently in southern Gaul, which led to the now-doubtful, on phonetic grounds, theory that the word comes from Visigothus. The typical use in Old French seems to have been as a derogatory nickname for Normans, the old theory (not universally accepted) being that it springs from their frequent use of the Germanic oath bi God. But OED dismisses in a three-exclamation-mark fury one fanciful version of the "by god" theory as "absurdly incongruous with facts." At the end, not much is left standing except Spanish bigote "mustache," which also has been proposed but not explained, and the chief virtue of which as a source seems to be there is no evidence for or against it.

In support of the "by God" theory, as a surname Bigott, Bygott are attested in Normandy and in England from the 11c., and French name etymology sources (such as Dauzat) explain it as a derogatory name applied by the French to the Normans and representing "by god." The English were known as goddamns 200 years later in Joan of Arc's France, and during World War I Americans serving in France were said to be known as les sommobiches (see also son of a bitch). But the sense development in bigot is difficult to explain. According to Donkin, the modern use first appears in French 16c. This and the earliest English sense, "religious hypocrite," especially a female one, might have been influenced by beguine and the words that cluster around it. Sense extended 1680s to other than religious opinions.

You realize that your views on Abrahamic religion are, in fact, a religion of its own?

Yes, I am an othodox Christian, one of the tenets of which is that Jesus is God. Did my post condemn all other religious adherents, or merely those who were intolerant of the rights of others to disagree?

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
If the Republicans nominate Trump, Bernie has a real chance. Even I, who think his views are crazy (see hasty post from last week) would vote for him over Trump.

John

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
So Counselor, by what theory of how the world works or (b) by what theory of how life works does the historical Jesus (assuming he existed at all) get to be God of the Universe... Born of a Virgin... and by what theory did he rise from the dead and ascend into heaven on the 3rd day (or was it the fifth).

Yes, I am an othodox Christian... j zarian

Here's a thought...

It's the 21st century now. Consider no longer defining yourself tribally based on imaginary fictitious ideas.

Just because your grandparents did doesn't mean you have to. Who knows, if they had access to the information you do, perhaps they wouldn't have.
Just a thought.

Maybe if millions around the world took the above "beta" to heart, there would be less sectarian violence and it would be a better more peaceful place.

Have you ever questioned your 2,000 year old beliefs? If no, am I the only one at this choss pile who is bothered by that?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
Bernie would be a shoo-in with a Trump nomination. Neither of those things is going to happen though.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 8, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
Neither of those things is going to happen though.

Boy, I hope you're right - at least with respect to Trump.

HFCS, If we engage in a religious debate, should we do so on the "religion vs. science" thread?

By what theory did Jesus perform His miracles? By demonstrating that He is God, who controls the universe (rather more clearly than, say the Ruler of the Universe in The Restuarant At The End Of The Universe.) If he merely existed following normal physical observations, how would the miracles be a "sign" of anything?

Why has no one duplicated His feats? Because they are not God.

John

Edit: Of course I've questioned my religious beliefs, as have, I suspect, most sentient adults. I came to faith as an adult, not as a child, because of personal experience, and despite detesting Christianity and Christians for most of my prior life. Again, though, I don't see that as the issue on this thread. To the extent it involves politics at all, it involves calls from candidates for POTUS like Trump that we keep all Muslims out of the country, which is something I find reprehensible.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
"Why has no one duplicated His feats? Because they are not God." -j lazian

Straight up weakness. Weakness of mind. Sorry.

And that ain't bigotry either, rather it's just identification of the problem in problem solving.

Learn to think straight when it comes to belief. I know you do so in other venues of life. Religion or theism shouldn't be any exception. Yet it is for you and umpteen million others like you.

Thank goodness it won't be for today's smart young people growing up in this age of social media, change and global awareness.


.....

re: weakness

It's as if you're not aware we live in the 21st century now in a global environment many millions (and growing) aware of our history over thousands to millions of years.

"Why has no one duplicated His feats? Because they are not God."

It's as if you're not aware standards have changed. They are new and higher now at least among the scientifically literate and educated (notwithstanding your anecdotes you have at the ready apparently).

"Because they are not God" might have been an effective answer in Belvue KS 100 years ago and yes sadly even among some today but it's as if you don't know how absolutely absurd that answer is today from a modern global historical perspective.

Time to add an eye of newt to my stew now, got a go. And I have an exorcism at 2pm. (Learned about that in ecology.) Later. But it's been fun.

Again, no bigotry here. Just the criticism of bad ideas - some very bad - that have been institutionalized over centuries and then foisted on the masses. Our species can do much better when it gets past them. And I believe it will. Perhaps not all of it - and obviously it's going to take some time - but enough of it.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
If the Republicans nominate Trump, Bernie has a real chance. Even I, who think his views are crazy (see hasty post from last week) would vote for him over Trump.

John

Sanders has to get past Hillary first.

My problems with Sanders are, 1) how does he pay for his entitlement programs? Does he plan to tax the one percenters to the max? They will move their assets offshore.
2) he is too old. He will be seventy-five by the time next november rolls around.
philo

climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 8, 2015 - 05:52pm PT

My problems with Sanders are, 1) how does he pay for his entitlement programs?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2013/01/02/cost-overruns-jet-should-prompt-pentagon-reassess-project/gYZy0N40hTEnRXwcEJlc3K/story.html
But the F-35 proved to be neither cheap nor adaptable. It is now the most costly weapons program in history. The Pentagon is projected to spend $396 billion on nearly 2,500 planes...

Apparently, the F-35 is not allowed to fly in the dark, or in the rain. It also can't carry its weapons. At least it doesn't asphyxiate its pilots like the F-22.

http://fortune.com/2015/11/04/new-stealth-bomber-program-faces-tightening-budgets/
At a projected $511 million per aircraft...
Uh, huh. Believe that do ya?

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2015/10/20/mccain-slams-cost-overruns-ford-class-carriers-outrageous/74000008/

The latest confrontation began Oct. 1, when the chairman of the Senate Armed Service Committee, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., called the Ford-class carrier program “one of the most spectacular acquisition debacles in recent memory.” The committee demanded to know what went wrong and who was accountable, with the first-in-class Gerald R. Ford now estimated to cost $12.9 billion — $2.4 billion over its initial price tag.

Which navy are we so threatened by?
http://alltoptens.com/top-ten-naval-forces-in-the-world/
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
Gary, you did not address the age issue. Raygun was in his '70s when he was president, and we see out that turned out.

Personally, I don't think anyone older than retirement age, sixty-seven, should be allowed to run for president.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 8, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
70 is the new 50! Besides, Sanders shows no sign of senility, unlike the Gipper.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 8, 2015 - 08:07pm PT


"Dear President Obama,

My name is Harold Estes, approaching 95 on December 13 of this year. People meeting me for the first time don’t believe my age because I remain wrinkle free and pretty much mentally alert.

I enlisted in the U.S. Navy in 1934 and served proudly before, during and after WW II retiring as a Master Chief Bos’n Mate. Now I live in a “rest home” located on the western end of Pearl Harbor, allowing me to keep alive the memories of 23 years of service to my country.

One of the benefits of my age, perhaps the only one, is to speak my mind, blunt and direct even to the head man.

So here goes.

I am amazed, angry and determined not to see my country die before I do, but you seem hell bent not to grant me that wish.

I can’t figure out what country you are the president of.
You fly around the world telling our friends and enemies despicable lies like:

” We’re no longer a Christian nation”
” America is arrogant”

– (Your wife even
announced to the world,” America is mean-spirited. ” Please tell her to try preaching that nonsense to 23 generations of our
war dead buried all over the globe who died for no other reason than to free a whole lot of strangers from tyranny and hopelessness.)

I’d say shame on the both of you, but I don’t think you like America, nor do I see an ounce of gratefulness in anything you do, for the obvious gifts this country has given you. To be without shame or gratefulness is a dangerous thing for a man sitting in the White House.

After 9/11 you said,” America hasn’t lived up to her ideals.”

Which ones did you mean? Was it the notion of personal liberty that 11,000 farmers and shopkeepers died for to win independence from the British? Or maybe the ideal that no man should be a slave to another man, that 500,000 men died for in the Civil War? I hope you didn’t mean the ideal 470,000 fathers, brothers, husbands, and a lot of fellas I knew personally died for in WWII, because we felt real strongly about not letting any nation push us around, because we stand for freedom.

I don’t think you mean the ideal that says equality is better than discrimination. You know the one that a whole lot of white people understood when they helped to get you elected.

Take a little advice from a very old geezer, young man.

Shape up and start acting like an American. If you don’t, I’ll do what I can to see you get shipped out of that fancy rental on Pennsylvania Avenue . You were elected to lead not to bow, apologize and kiss the hands of murderers and corrupt leaders who still treat their people like slaves.

And just who do you think you are telling the American people not to jump to conclusions and condemn that Muslim major who killed 13 of his fellow soldiers and wounded dozens more. You mean you don’t want us to do what you did when that white cop used force to subdue that black college professor in Massachusetts , who was putting up a fight? You don’t mind offending the police calling them stupid but you don’t want us to offend Muslim fanatics by calling them what they are, terrorists.

One more thing. I realize you never served in the military and never had to defend your country with your life, but you’re the Commander-in-Chief now, son. Do your job. When your battle-hardened field General asks you for 40,000 more troops to complete the mission, give them to him. But if you’re not in this fight to win, then get out. The life of one American soldier is not worth the best political strategy you’re thinking of.

You could be our greatest president because you face the greatest challenge ever presented to any president.
You’re not going to restore American greatness by bringing back our bloated economy. That’s not our greatest threat. Losing the heart and soul of who we are as Americans is our big fight now.
And I sure as hell don’t want to think my president is the enemy in this final battle…

Sincerely,
Harold B. Estes
BMCM USN(RET)

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 8, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
Lost a great MOH recipient today. Screwed for decades by a NCO, but what do you expect?


https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/tibor-teddy-rubin-who-received-medal-of-honor-for-one-man-assault-in-korea-dies-at-86/2015/12/08/601402d2-9dc3-11e5-a3c5-c77f2cc5a43c_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-cards_hp-card-national%3Ahomepage%2Fcard

“Teddy” Rubin, as Tibor became known, largely avoided talking about World War II and Korea. But in the 1980s, he attended a reunion of veterans, where he reconnected with members of his unit. They expressed shock that he had not received the Medal of Honor.

He was told that he had been nominated four times by his grateful comrades — efforts, it emerged, that had been blocked by the sergeant.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 8, 2015 - 09:12pm PT
Screwed for decades by a NCO, but what do you expect?

A "Buck" Sgt has far more power in Operational and Administrative rank than a Capt (OIC) or Colonel (CO) who should have initially written, pre-approved and forwarded the original Citation per the US ARMY Military Awards Manual Army Regulation 600–8–22?

Amazing.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 07:29am PT
Laying down a blanket age maximum for office is not acceptable. We have elections and being President requires more fitness and stamina now than ever. Covering up an ailing President is no easy task.




Once again, The Onion is prescient:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 10:22am PT
Your racist link for the day: Scalia: Affirmative Action Sends Blacks To Schools Too Advanced For Them

In the oral arguments Wednesday for a Supreme Court affirmative action case, Justice Antonin Scalia—a well known critic of affirmative action—suggested that the policy was hurting minority students by sending them to schools too academically challenging for them.

Referencing an unidentified amicus brief, Scalia said that there were people who would contend "that it does not benefit African-Americans" who don't do well in the schools that accept them under affirmative action, and that those students would be better off in the less advanced schools that they would have otherwise gone to.

He argued that "most of the black scientists in this country do not come from the most advanced schools" and that they benefit from a "slower track."

"They're being pushed into schools that are too advanced for them," Scalia said Wednesday of minority students accepted under affirmative action programs.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 11:29am PT
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