Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
|
but only to them that do the counting.
Which leaves out the uneducated.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
|
Admittedly I have not read the thread, but wouldn't it have been more catchy if it was "The Ten Commandment of First Ascent"?
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 12:37am PT
|
Is alpine hiking within the scope of this discussion?
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 09:14am PT
|
{the susurration of crickets}
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
|
Only on supertopo would stink bugging around on 5.10 slabs be considered superior to alpine climbing.
|
|
pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
|
suffering is to resist change
|
|
RyanD
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
|
I've been laughing the entire time!
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
|
My reading of this, is once I do an FA, I can't change it, without community approval, t
I guess I don't see how you read anything anyone posted that way. My own experience over many decades of climbing is that the community norms largely, but not totally, dictate the style most climbers apply on first ascents.
The runout, ground-up, multi-pitch Tuolumne Meadows routes exist in that form because most of the Meadows climbers did not think rap-bolting was a fair tactic. When the sport-climbing genre became better established, we got some excellent sport climbs there, too. Amazingly, if one were to judge only by this thread, those climbs co-exist largely peacefully. Yes, I was there when Hand Jive was put up, then erased, then re-established, but that was more than a decade before the general acceptance of sport climbing.
As near as I can tell, the general reluctance to alter fixed protection in an existing route is, at most, a tiny problem anywhere where I climb in California. We sometime have issues about appropriate styles for first ascents (e.g. the process that led to Pinnacles adopting ground-up, hand drilled protection as the only acceptable first ascent style), but I just haven't seen all that much controversy over subsequent ascent fixed pro on the overwhelming majority of climbs I've done.
John
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
|
laws? im a law man.
i deal in physics and material science.
capacities are assigned,
durations, allotted. wills, tamed.
smiles overcoming emotional inertia;
tears yearning for position on the face.
laws.
i skip them all the time.
they are four fools:
people whom cannot dream up their own units.
take time, for example.
pretty fixed, right.
a passage of moments.
a resistance to haste.
a motivator of life.
a beat issuing of god's heart.
i manipulate time all the time it's mine.
i compress many moments into a few,
and then i expand others into one.
no i am not reporting psychedelic's fraud.
im only under the influence of ambition.
a concrete example:
in the last 7 days, i issued design documents
on a million square foot parking garage,
and a 7 story east bay condo,
both concrete plates / frames.
done.
not much sleep.
no recreation, no leisure, no sundays
in the past 7 or so, god got nothing on me,
pffft, the world in seven days?
she's obviously sloppy in her calcs
what with all the hurricanes and floods
and unstable plates.
my shite stands.
forever.
so now i take my reprive.
i'll go rope solo some trying terrain.
drink a bit.
watch the new
el cap movie i bought of proceeds.
oh,
and chase kitty.
laws.
they for small thinkers.
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
|
the only lie that i abide
is die.
the law states,
die, trying.
but i schipt all that,
and just die, as is.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
|
I'm one of the few old schoolers who can see that a small percentage could be changed without initiating a slippery slider to the death of bold slab routes, but the experiment needs to be initiated by the folks with the problem.
Exactly, Kevin. The lack of such initiating suggests we've exaggerated the issue. Put another way, the demand to change the old school routes isn't all that big.
John
|
|
StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
|
I think all this trolling has affected your memory. How do you see this statement as "all inclusive"?
"Some folk assume if they did the first reported ascent of a rock climb they "own" the line they climbed."
This seems prettty clear to me. It does not say mixed climbing or mountaineering.
The conversation naturally gravitated to slabs, because that is usually where there is a divergence of opinion relative to how and when existing routes may be modified, and there is a strong tradition of GU climbing and drilling from natural stances, as opposed to creating outdoor gym climbs. Many have argued that the GU tradition should be respected.
I agree with Todd, Largo and others that you should stop filling up the thread with hyperbole and pictures of snow and ice, and go to one of these places where all the climbing is tied up in museum climbs and start drilling.
|
|
The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
|
It's Wednesday, dood.
|
|
LongAgo
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
|
Greg,
Of course I’m glad to hear you, as respected and active Meadows climber, say about Silverado:
“But I'm not touching it...definitely a somebody else's problem...and Minerals would never even think about retrobolting someone else's route. Don't know who might actually decide to do that, with all the new rock to explore which you can find with just a bit more hiking! Maybe another few decades down the line...if any bolting is permitted at all at that point.”
Though I’m no longer in the Tuolumne game, I’m happy you for one believe there’s no need to add bolts to this route or others if I get your drift, especially since one can find “new rock to explore … with just a bit more hiking.” My hope is you speak in concert with the majority of active and involved climbers there.
Of course things could change in the future. If and when pressure rises for adding bolts to old routes, I hope you and other active ones there will be consulted, whether organized as per the Pinnacles model or not. Of course, I’d be happy to be consulted too if my voice is at all still relevant to those who now regularly travel those glorious walls, but I hold no expectation my way old style preferences would sync with the deciding view.
mt10910
Thanks for clarifying your comments and thoughts. I appreciate your incisive questions and comments as you and others here make me squirm and help refine my views.
Whiskey and beer: you know, some of that very much helped bring the Pinnacles discussion to resolution, though there was some danger for a time of flying bottles!
Dingus,
In response to the question: "Does precedent count for anything?"
You said, “It counts for something - but only to them that do the counting.”
I wish I could have been so pithy. That is exactly the point underlying all I’ve rambled on about. The points and considerations we have discussed exist only in our heads. There is no precedent outside our formulating, remembering and interpreting it for how we climb or will climb. In fact, there is no history at all, only a bunch of bolts and patches of chalk here and there on this stuff we call, arbitrarily, granite or sandstone or grit or limestone. We keep alive the history of routes and characters of yesteryear and their stories and the meaning of how and why and when we placed and passed those bolts only through memory and telling and writing. It’s a little scary to think, but climbing really means nothing outside our making of it, and that making can and does change all the time. And that’s why those alive and active and deciding now area by area are so key. It’s their game to make up and we less active or inactive only can offer memories and ideas about what works (or might work) best for personal and community satisfaction. Such is the nature of “precedent” or any other construct we try to keep alive, or fail to do so.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
|
With all the talk about specific routes, and foreshortening of time which tends to distort evolving climbing styles, I looked into Ed Hartouni’s Valley data base to see how many run-out routes there are, who put them up, and when. Most of them are on the Apron, followed by the North Face Apron and the Terraces area. The list below shows the run-out routes in the slab areas of the Valley; not all of them are necessarily bolted, slab routes.
Ed’s data base, at least the version I have, includes about 2200 climbs up to about 1992.
There 70 climbs have R and X designations and represent about 1/3 of the 220 climbs in these slab areas.
These 70 run-out slab climbs also represent about 35% of the total number of run-out climbs from the entire Valley data base. It is surprising to me that there are twice as many R and X routes on non-slab route areas as in the slab areas. Given that R/X slab climbs represent such a small percentage of total climbs—3%--and that there are twice as many R/X non-slab climbs, it is remarkable that they create such a ruckus.
This ruckus is probably explained by the FA party’s choice to sparsely protect them with bolts (as compared to a run-out off-widths where the FA party is not perceived to have had a choice to add bolts), but it might also be explained in part by the perception of quality assigned to R/X climbs, especially R/X slab climbs.
In total, 33% of all climbs are starred (Reid’s) in the data base. For non-slab climbs, 31% of the non-R/X routes are starred, and 41% of the R/X routes are starred.
For slab climbs, 37% of the non- R/X routes are starred, and 68% of the R/X routes are starred.
Statistically, run-out slabs are the best climbs in the Valley. Who knew?
1958 Arches Terrace 5.8 R * Terrace Area Merle Alley Rich Calderwood John Ohrenshcall George Sessions
1961 Coonyard Pinnacle 5.9 R Apron, Center Chuck Ostin Frank Sacherer Rich Calderwood
1963 Patio Pinnacle, Regular Route 5.8 R Apron, Center Jeff Foott
1964 Goodrich Pinnacle, Right Side 5.9 R *** Apron, Center Royal Robbins Liz Robbins TM Herbert
1964 Mouth, The, Regular 5.9 R * Apron, Center Bob Kamps Tom Cochrane
1964 Flakes, The 5.8 R * Middle Cathedral Rock, Gunsight Gully Area Frank Sacherer Mark Powell
1965 Patio Pinnacle, Left Side 5.9 R Apron, Center Gordon Webster John Morton
1965 Lucifer's to the Oasis 5.9 R/X Apron, West Ken Boche Russ McLean
1966 Cow, The, Center 5.5 R * Apron, East Jeff Schaffer Greg Schaffer
1966 Punch Bowl, The 5.10a R Apron, Far West Bob Kamps Tom Higgins
1966 Fallen Arches 5.9 R Terrace Area Yvon Chouinard Tom Frost
1967 Jump for Joy 5.9 R * Eagle Creek Area Yvon Chouinard Joy Herron
1970 Cow, The, Left 5.8 R * Apron, East Ken Boche Mary Bomba
1970 Marginal 5.9 R *** Apron, East Ken Boche Mary Bomba Joe McKeown
1970 Grack, The, Right Side 5.8 R/X Apron, East TM Herbert Ken Boche
1971 Illusion, The 5.10d R Eagle Creek Area Tom Higgins Galen Rowell Loyd Price John Kanepej
1972 Fecophilia 5.9 R * Eagle Creek Area Yvon Chouinard
1972 Paradise Lost 5.10a R * Middle Cathedral Rock, Northeast Face Ray Jardine Rik Rieder
1972 Shakey Flakes 5.11a R * Terrace Area Chris Falkenstein Ken Bishop Edd Kuropat Tom Carter
1972 Flakey Foont 5.9 R/X * Apron, Center Vince Goetz Rick Lee Al Hu
1972 Mother's Lament, A 5.10c R/X Apron, East Rab Carrington Rik Rieder
1973 Monday Morning to Patio 5.10a R Apron, Center Mark Chapman Ed Barry
1973 Quicksilver 5.9 R *** Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron Kevin Worrall George Meyers Vern Clevenger
1973 Freewheelin' 5.10b R *** Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron Kevin Worrall George Meyers Roger Breedlove
1974 Deep Throat 5.10a R * Apron, Center Dennis Oakeshott Paul Weir
1974 Hoosier's Highway 5.10c R * Apron, Center Steve Shea Molly Higgins Larry Bruce Lou Dawson
1974 Hoppy's Favorite 5.10b R * Apron, East Dennis Oakeshott Vern Cleavenger
1974 Black Primo 5.11b R * Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron Kevin Worrall John Long George Meyers
1974 Greasy but Groovy 5.10d R/X * Terrace Area John Long Rick Accomazzo Richard Harrison
1975 Misty Beethoven 5.10d R *** Apron, Center Mark Wilford
1975 Tightrope 5.11b R * Apron, East Vern Clevenger Tom Carter
1975 Calf Continuation 5.10b R Apron, East Dennis Oakeshott Vern Cleavenger
1975 Easy Wind 5.9 R Eagle Creek Area Kevin Worrall Billy Westbay
1975 Mother Earth 5.11c R ** Middle Cathedral Rock, Gunsight Gully Area George Meyers John Long Kevin Worrall Mark Chapman
1975 Orange Peel 5.11b R ** Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron George Meyers Bruce Hawkins
1976 Mouse King, The 5.9 R Eagle Creek Area George Meyers
1976 Jigsaw 5.11a R * Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron Kevin Worrall George Meyers Mark Chapman
1976 Space Babble 5.11a R * Middle Cathedral Rock, Northeast Face Ron Kauk Kevin Worrall
1976 Reefer Madness 5.10d R/X * Terrace Area Pat Timson Don Harter
1976 Shake and Bake 5.10a X * Lower Cathedral Rock, East Face Rick Accomazzo Richard Harrison
1976 Spooky Tooth 5.10a X * Lower Cathedral Rock, East Face John Yablonski Fred East Richard Harrison
1976 Starfire 5.10 X * Lower Cathedral Rock, East Face Rick Accomazzo Richard Harrison
1977 Udder Way, An 5.10a R * Apron, East Bill Zauman Dave Jensen
1978 Angelica 5.9 R * Apron, Center Fremont Bainbridge Conrad Van Bruggen Simon King Gordon Rhodes
1978 Hall of Mirrors 5.12c R *** Apron, Center Chris Cantwell Bruce Morris Scott Burke Dave Austin
1978 Ochre Fields 5.11a R * Apron, East Carl Austrom Darryl Jones
1979 Green Dragon 5.11b R/X *** Apron, West Chris Cantwell Dean Young
1981 Ephemeral Clogdance 5.11b R * Apron, West Rick McGregor Robert Parker
1983 Exodus 5.10b R * Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron Jay Smith Gary Anderson
1985 Pieces of Eight 5.10c R * Middle Cathedral Rock, Northeast Face Scott Burke Steve Schneider
1985 Friday the 13th 5.10b R Terrace Area Dimitri Barton Scott Burke
1986 Ticket to Nowhere 5.11c R *** Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron Bob Gaines John Mallery Tom Callahan Mike Paul
1986 Walk of Life 5.10d R * Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron Ron Kauk Kevin Worrall Mark Chapman
1986 Rambler, The 5.10d R ** Terrace Area Steve Gerberding Scott Burke Chris Hash Gene Hash
1986 Roller Coaster 5.8 R/X Apron, East Ken Ariza Mike Hatchett Mark Carpenter
1986 Tapestry 5.9 R/X * Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron Heidi Pesterfield Brian Bennett
1986 Crying for Mama 5.10a R/X Terrace Area Charles Cole John Middendorf
1987 Beer Pressure 5.10a R Eagle Creek Area Walt Shipley
1987 Tour de Force 5.12b R * Middle Cathedral Rock, Northeast Face Scott Burke Jeff Folett
1987 Lingering Lines 5.10- R Terrace Area Tucker Tech Cade Loyd
1987 Mouse That Soared, The 5.10- R Terrace Area Tucker Tech Pete Takeda
1987 Five o'Clock Shadow 5.9 X Middle Cathedral Rock, North Face, Apron Jay Smith Penny Fogel
1989 Chase, The 5.9+ R ** Parkline Slab, Parkline Pinnacle Dave Caunt Eric Mayo
1989 Costa Rica 5.9 R Parkline Slab, Parkline Pinnacle Tucker Tech Steve Routhbun John Dossi
1989 Stonequest 5.8+ R *** Parkline Slab, Parkline Pinnacle Ron Skelton Mark Tuttle
1989 Soloist, The 5.10 R * Parkline Slab, Parkline Pinnacle Ron Skelton
1990 Dressed to Kill 5.10b R Parkline Slab Walt Shipley Ken Yager
? Variation on a Theme 5.10b R * Apron, Center
? Slander Session 5.10- R Terrace Area
? Token, The 5.11d R/X ** Apron, West Scott Burke
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
|
Steve Gerberding & Dimitri put up at least a couple routes over there - maybe 7-10 years ago or something? I'm sure someone knows more info on those new routes and where they are compared to the old ones.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:19am PT
|
Statistically, run-out slabs are the best climbs in the Valley.
Never
You been out of the loop way tooo looonng .......
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:55am PT
|
got to look at Spooky Tooth, Shake and Bake and Starfire last April on a descent of the Gunsight from the top of Lower Cathedral Rock... impressive area, and there has been development there...
...somehow haven't made it back up there to take a closer look (any closer and we'd have been on them), that whole area is an amazing place with some wonderful rock...
part of the "run out slab" issue has to do with the paucity of stances on which to drill... generally you keep on going until you think you have a place you can stick long enough... if power drills were allowed there'd probably be more bolts.
These climbs are generally protected from "top down" tactics, there really is no well defined top that can be got to...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!