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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 25, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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please excuse my interest in the motives and methods of totalitarian governments, aka major criminal gangs, aka epidemics of social diseases
and my quoted posts above come from Norman Pollack, author of “The Populist Response to Industrial America” (Harvard) and “The Just Polity” (Illinois), Guggenheim Fellow, and professor of history emeritus, Michigan State University. His new book, 'Eichmann on the Potomac', will be published by CounterPunch/AK Press in the fall of 2013
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
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Tom, one conspiracy theory at a time please.
And Griffin? You're really going to dredge up the laetrile nonsense? Beard, Harris, and Krebs! Oh My! Complete and utter quackery.
Norman Pollack, while a bit of a drama queen and given to occasional fits of hysteria, is certainly a much, much better reference in this instance.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
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Ron, sometimes I can't escape the feeling that Nevada must have small designated 'Tribal Areas' similar to Pakistan, but for the terminally clueless.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
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it's all ok
i'm sure the Rockefellers, Morgans, Carnegies, Rothchilds...all have your best interests at heart
not to worry
based upon my years as a project manager at Booz Allen Hamilton
just do as you are told
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
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Tom, if you want to have a proper definition of totalitarianism, start by mentioning Hannah Arendt...otherwise you're pretty much just blowing smoke.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
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i am more of a wilderness guy, and sad for the loss of wilderness
some people love the cities and there are many wonderful things about cities
the loss of a city is a great loss to all of us
and the cities are full of wonderful people, even if not all their citizens are quite so wonderful
we don't have a population problem, we have a management problem
genocide, war, enslavement, etc are not solutions
these are symptoms of bad management
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
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these are symptoms of bad management
By neo-cons and neo-Marxists. We need a good Libertarian to run things for a while.
As for Snowden? Too much ambiguity, not enough details yet. Seems to me like a hack though. An agent for for people who do not like us.
Too early to tell. Wouldn't be surprised if his next car speeded up inexplicably and crashed into a ball of flames....
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
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i am prepared to believe that four-star general Keith Alexander is sincere in his attempts to manage NSA activities properly according to his level of understanding of reality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OL5Fa8EZTEA#at=392
however US foreign policy is doing a great job of creating enemies
i prefer Abraham Lincolns quote about how to handle your enemies...turn them into your friends...
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 25, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
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i don't have a security clearance and never wanted one
i don't like being boxed into a compartment... professionally i work as a broad area innovator, coordinator and concept catalyst
that's partly why i left BAH after many years rather than move into that arena
one of my friends and colleagues who doesn't feel constrained that way, was able to leverage my model-based systems concepts to become a senior VP at BAH...he is welcome
i could have accepted the invitation...but wouldn't be chatting with you
i have also avoided signing non-disclosure documents...at several major corporations and government agencies, including DoD, DOE, DOJ, DOI, etc
if someone wants to entrust me with information, it should be because they trust me, not because i signed some document
if i don't want to talk about something, it is because of my judgement that the information would be harmful, and i am trying to not be harmful to people or the hopes for civilization
i like to be able to speak openly on an open forum like this, according to my own best judgement, not constrained by some legal document
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 26, 2013 - 12:01am PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden
Reactions to Snowden's disclosures among members of Congress were varied.
Representative Thomas Massie (R-KY) said: "Whether or not this program was authorized by Congress, it seems to me that this is an unconstitutional activity ... Which would make it illegal, and he should have some kind of immunity.”[84] Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) said: "If it is the case that the federal government is seizing millions of personal records about law-abiding citizens, and if it is the case that there are minimal restrictions on accessing or reviewing those records, then I think Mr. Snowden has done a considerable public service by bringing it to light."[85]
Speaker of the House of Representatives John Boehner called Snowden "a 'traitor' who has put Americans at risk."[86] Many in Congress joined Boehner[87] in calling for Snowden's arrest, such as Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), chair of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Senator;[88] Senator Bob Menendez (D-NJ), chair of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations; House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA);[89] Representative Mike Rogers (R-MI), chair of the House Intelligence Committee;[90] and Representative Peter King, former chair of the House Homeland Security Committee;[91] among others.[84][92][93][94][95][96]
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 26, 2013 - 12:16am PT
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Whistleblower community
Daniel Ellsberg, the whistleblower and leaker of the top-secret Pentagon Papers in 1971, stated in an interview with CNN that he thought Snowden had done an "incalculable" service to his country and that his leaks might prevent America from becoming a surveillance state. He said Snowden had acted with the same sort of courage and patriotism as a soldier in battle.[146] In an op-ed the following morning, Ellsberg added that "there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that includes the Pentagon Papers, for which I was responsible 40 years ago."[147] Ray McGovern, a retired CIA officer who presented White House intelligence briefs for multiple presidents, said he agreed with Ellsberg in an interview where he also said "this time today I'm feeling much more hopeful for our democracy that I was feeling this time yesterday."[148]
William Binney, a whistleblower who, like Snowden, disclosed details of the NSA's mass surveillance activities, said that Snowden had "performed a really great public service to begin with by exposing these programs and making the government in a sense publicly accountable for what they're doing." However, after Snowden began leaking allegations that the US was "hacking into China," Binney felt, "he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor."[149]
Thomas Drake, former senior executive of NSA and whistle blower as well, said that he feels "extraordinary kinship" with Snowden. "I actually salute him, given my experience over many, many years both inside and outside the system. Remember, I saw what he saw. I want to re-emphasize that. What he did was a magnificent act of civil disobedience. He's exposing the inner workings of the surveillance state. And it's in the public interest. It truly is."[150]
WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange praised Snowden, calling him a "hero" who has exposed "one of the most serious events of the decade – the creeping formulation of a mass surveillance state."[151] After charges against Snowden were revealed, Assange released a statement that asked people to "step forward and stand with" Snowden.[152]
See also
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 26, 2013 - 01:05am PT
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Representative Thomas Massie (R-KY) said: "Whether or not this program was authorized by Congress, it seems to me that this is an unconstitutional activity..."
Consider for a moment that this idiot was actually voted into office.
Curt
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 26, 2013 - 01:18am PT
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If you think the NSA is collecting all the communications for security of US citizens, boy do they have you snowed.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jun 26, 2013 - 01:22am PT
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Only really dumb terrorists would use Facebook, Skype and Gmail.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 26, 2013 - 01:37am PT
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You know, I work with law enforcement agencies, and it is surprising how much stuff criminals post on Facebook and the like. Astonishing, actually (then again, think about how much stupid sh#t is posted here). Sure, brainy terrorists with a modicum of impulse control will avoid it, but think about how many terrorists are kids . Wouldn't surprise me at all to learn they are openly boasting about their activities online.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jun 26, 2013 - 02:26am PT
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Riley, don't buy that "kill the messenger" crap.
If Snowden can steal that level of information, there really IS something wrong with US "intelligence". We need whistle blowers like that.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 26, 2013 - 02:56am PT
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there are some very basic issues here as to how a society is managed and how a viable and sustainable civilization can be created
a civilization is based upon trust
i have long maintained that the truth eventually comes out, in spite of any efforts to conceal it, and often because of such efforts
most important classical international intelligence has come from commonly available sources, newspapers, magazines, street rumors etc.
most high security material eventually leaks into those sources
not James Bond type activities
major secrets always leak at the fringes, and analysis of the fringes points to the core of the secret
you just need to read a lot
the internet just expedites that process
the standard handling of leaks has been to spread vast amounts of similar, but patently false information through controlled media
you might know that something important has leaked, but which of the many false stories hides the truth
any society based upon deceit, lies, disinformation, violent acts upon citizens and neighbors...can not long persist...
there is no need for a revolution, as a dishonest society will collapse under the weight of bad actions
on the contrary, the collapse of a society is disastrous for everyone: good or bad or just nearby
the greater the differential between the rich and the poor, the less stable is the society
it is actually very important to try and hold the collapsing society together long enough to grow a more viable replacement...
based upon mutual respect and support, kindness, shunning greed and power mongering...
money is just a scam...we don't really need it any more...
there is no real scarcity, just a system that generates false scarcity and false wants in order to create and maintain monopolized control
3D printing of anything you need will soon change society as much or more than the internet
and even if we maintain a medium of trusted exchange, there is no need for banks, as anyone can already do trusted transactions over the internet...just like the banks already do under monopoly control...
and we most certainly don't need the current fractional reserve banking system trapping everyone in credit default swaps and unavoidable inflation
this archaic society based upon fear and lies and cheating is obsolete
let's move on...
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 26, 2013 - 05:06am PT
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i don't know the extent of what Snowdon has released, so can't quite judge the wisdom of his actions...
but the trade-off between intrusive intelligence and false security is very dangerous and begging for abuse by senior management
i know there are lots of people out there who would love to harm us the minute there is any opportunity, even in our own country... apparently especially in our own country...whether from desperation or revenge or greed or lust for power
to walk around thinking otherwise is just naive
there is tremendous temptation to run around dropping bombs on people and expecting that to solve problems
that may be fun for a while and gives a false sense of accomplishment
but the negative consequences of tearing up a society extend for generations into the future and benefit no one
so that just exacerbates problems, increasing the already too many people that hate us
our managers have to find alternatives to violent solutions
perhaps it is too late to save ourselves, but i don't want to encourage that line of thought...fear is like a prayer for what you don't want to happen
our society is cheating its citizens with artificially contrived monopolies on all the means of survival, making it very a hard to justify any holier-than-thou attitude relative to other countries
i think our central managers realize they have gone too far, but the momentum of old habits is hard to change
these monopolies are sitting on solutions that could completely change the nature of the game...but these are not solutions that can be monopolized
secrecy seems to be more often used to hide discreditable acts than to protect justifiable sources and methods
the elite seem to desperately fantasize that controlling all the money and power will save them during social collapse
i do not think that will work out well for them...
bringing social pressure requiring our bosses forgo their greed and face up to fair and equitable solutions might be the only thing that can save us at this point
it is not clear that the public has either the wisdom or the will to so
now would be a good time to wake up
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jun 26, 2013 - 09:20am PT
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Well spoken Tom.
I don't know what the solution is. Some will say that at the root, voters can choose differently. However, the last 20 years has seen this idea that we need everyone inside the tent voting no matter how ill informed and ignorant they are, and it's against the law to try and weed out the dumbasses.
I was listening yesterday to a guy who was talking to a group of 20 somethings...Obama voters, who did not know who Hillary Clinton was. These people vote. (not categorizing 20 somethings as all dumbasses or all Obama voters either) I guess we get what we get.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 26, 2013 - 10:16am PT
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Best post in the whole thread Tom.
I'm so sick of hearing all the bullsh!t garbage about this.
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