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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 28, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
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it's clear that reasonable regulation of weapons would be constitutionally permitted.
I'm all in on that. Of course the real question is "What is reasonable?"
I would add to that, in the case of disasters like the Connecticut murders, what can be done which is legal and will work? The more news we get the more it is evident that the killer was planning his rampage for a long time, so the idea that he just suddenly snapped is going down.
Even the gun banners admit that it will take a long time for their plans to bear fruit. How about looking at long term ways to either avoid helping kids become psychopaths (do some serious research on games and drugs,) or to identify them by their behavior before they commit an atrocity.
I'm all for reasonable gun regulation, but what I see going on now is a bunch of people who have been anti gun for a long time pile onto this recent mass murder as a venue to press their agenda. The result is a bunch of proposals which arguably will not stop the next psychopathic mass killer. Or one 20 years from now, and which will certainly not affect a street criminal who gets his gun under the table.
Let's focus on the individuals who commit the crimes and atrocities. If we can make progress in this area we will with certainty reduce the killings. If we cannot, the killers will find a way to create their mayhem.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 28, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
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Okay Hedge, it's too far back upthread to deal with, but I went through that phrase for you. Your reply was to criticize me for not quoting the whole thing, although the words are common knowledge. Your reply was weak.
I'm done with this. Get to work trying to repeal the 2nd, see how that goes. You'll have more fun than trying to find solutions which actually address the problem and work.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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Not beneath me at all
Ideological ignorance goes hand in hand with being racist
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
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Veritas!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
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Unhinged's dream world
They truly are determined to control people to the point where they can't (their theory goes) do anything bad, ever, simply because their freedoms and permitted choices are so limited.
This logic ultimately runs to this: Since no human being needs to do anything besides work and eat, we might as well mandate that people take a powerful narcotic sleeping pill immediately after their evening meal, so they simply slumber until the next work shift.
That way, you're pretty sure no one can really do much of anything at all in their non-working hours. And then at last we will have Paradise on Earth.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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Bruce, in Utah ALL the kids shoot!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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No Bruce
you don't get it
IT'S ALL ABOUT ME!
where I live, what newspaper I read, what guns I own
IT'S ALL ABOUT ME
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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(Reuters) – Kasey Hansen, a special educationteacher from Salt Lake City, Utah, says she would take a bullet for any of her students, but if faced with a gunman threatening her class, she would rather be able to shoot back.
On Thursday, she was one of 200 Utah teachers who flocked to an indoor sports arena for free instruction in the handling of firearms by gun activists who say armed educators might have a chance at thwarting deadly shooting rampages in their schools.
The event was organized by the Utah Shooting Sports Council in response to the mass shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, this month that killed 20 children and six staff members at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
The council said it has typically attracted about 16 teachers each year to its concealed carry training courses. But Thursday’s event near Salt Lake City, organized especially for educators in the aftermath of Newtown, drew interest from hundreds, and the class was capped at 200 for space limitations.
“I feel like I would take a bullet for any student in the school district,” Hansen, a special education teacher in a Salt Lake City school district, told Reuters after the training session.
“If we should ever face a shooter like the one in Connecticut, I’m fully prepared to respond with my firearm,” she said, adding that she planned to buy a weapon soon and take it to work.
PHOENIX — Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said Thursday that he plans to deploy his armed volunteer posse to protect Valley schools from the kind of violence that happened in the Connecticut shooting tragedy. Arpaio believes having armed law officers around schools will deter would-be criminals from trying anything violent and, possibly, stop them if they do.
“I have the authority to mobilize private citizens and fight crime in this county,” Arpaio said.
Arpaio first started using his posse to protect malls during the holiday shopping season in 1993 in response to violent incidents in prior years. Since then he said malls where his posse members are on patrol have had zero violent re-occurrences and patrols by his all-volunteer squad during the 2012 shopping season netted a record 31 arrests.
Arpaio said since the program has worked so well in malls he believes it will work just as well protecting schools.
“We’re not talking about placing the posse in the schools right now but in the outlying — the perimeters of the school — to detect any criminal activity.”
A new Gallup poll shows that the National Rifle Association, the target of a wave of intensely negative news coverage after the Newtown, Connecticut school shootings, still has a favorable rating of 54 percent. While down from the organization’s 60 percent favorable rating in 2005, that is still about a point higher than President Obama’s personal favorable rating.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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Thank God the "stupid pill" isn't singular. The NRA can keep their's and the posters on this thread can keep their's. What are you guy's trying to do....change each others mind- now that's just plain stupid! Give it a rest.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
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So what is the point you are trying to make about UTAH, Ron?
Utah's per 100K population rate of handgun deaths is 10.2
The national average is 10
So, in spite of having quite "liberal" gun laws in Utah, there is NO statistical reduction or argument to be made for "more guns and kids knowing how to shoot equals less deaths'
Nope, no relevance
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 28, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
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it would be too too much to think that klk's post:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2016672&msg=2020676#msg2020676
would have resulted in anyone actually going off and reading 4 books on the subject from scholars who actually researched the issue...
of course we have the indubitable Donald Thompson reply that assures us that that work must be "pseudo-intellectual deconstruction at its best/ worst." Of course he has neither read the work, nor does he offer an intellectual response, "pseudo-" or otherwise.
If the assembled debaters agree to some level that the actual historic recored is irrelevant, that the modern right to have a lethal weapon in their possession is sacrosanct, and that to preserve their own personal right, it must apply to everyone, then the types of horror represented by the killing of innocent women and children (which is what occurred in Connecticut) will be inevitable.
That is the price, and it is a high one, for maintaining that individual liberty take priority over the rights of the community to be secure.
It is not common sense that the ubiquitous supply of deadly force available to anyone legally is a prescription to a "more perfect union." These are choices we make as an entire society, and as a society we trade off individual liberties with the needs of that society. Checks and balances in the political system are their to ensure that minority rights are upheld against the prevailing majorities...
If one were to take the view that historically, at least a part of the thinking that went into the 2nd amendment was to provide the populace with a means of overthrowing a tyrannical government, then what modern tyrannies have been so overthrown? Have these not all happened in states where guns ownership was banned by the government? In what ways did this ban inhibit the acquisition of weapons with which the civilian population rebelled against their government?
I can understand the reticence of a few to allow the possibility that their personal preference to be armed to be slightly restricted. But they should not adopt the noble claim of preserving the freedom of the people as they are not so concerned with their neighbor's plight, they are only concerned about their own.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 28, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
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and watching them either change the subject, or scurry away
I neither change the subject - my focus being on the person who commits the act - nor do I scurry away. If I am not here at every moment it is because I actually have a life beyond this thread (apparently unlike certain others...)
Good night, all...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 28, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
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The dozens of ARs sold just in this county baring the shelves in the past 2 weeks were all bought by local Utah residents.
I can assure you that the local culture is monolithic stubborn and rebellious.
Hell, they still call it Utah's Dixie and fly Confederate flags.
(and resentment against the Feds precedes Johnston's army in 1857)
The more you seek to marginalize them the more self-righteous they become.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 28, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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Yes, Ron, self-righteousness is something that the rabid gun nuts have no shortage of. But then, many of them probably also claim to be 'christian'.
I neither change the subject - my focus being on the person who commits the act - nor do I scurry away.
Shouldn't the focus be what if any laws and policies would be constitutionally acceptable, reasonably likely to be enacted, and reasonably likely to reduce incidents of mass murder?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 28, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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TGT, I already saw those. Hilarious, they got the operator shield and skipped the ordnance.
I hope they got paid "assault weapon" rates for those throwaway tubes.
Ron, I'm sorry are you talking about present day Utah or is that old confederacy ?.... I'm afraid I can't tell the difference, not by your description anyway.
See Bruce? I knew we had common ground!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 29, 2012 - 12:34am PT
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Shouldn't the focus be what if any laws and policies would be constitutionally acceptable, reasonably likely to be enacted, and reasonably likely to reduce incidents of mass murder?
Did I not say that in my previous post (in fewer words?)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 29, 2012 - 12:41am PT
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[Norton:]WHO is talking about "taking away" guns from people who legally own them?
[Dr.F:]No one
It's just typical slippery slope right wing paranoia
[Norton:]
that's what I thought too
down the slippery slope we go
as soon as anyone mentions the possibility of some vague kind of legislation to mitigate mass slaughter in some small way, out jumps the "they are gonna take all my guns away tomorrow" fear crapola
I see. All we need to get guns out of the hands of those who illegally own them is to pass a law making illegal gun ownership more illegal. And people call gun owners nuts!
In truth, the only way to reduce the supply of illegally possessed firearms is to reduce the number of legally possessed firearms. THus, those who are advocating change in our gun laws are either advocating a useless policy, or else they are, in fact, advocating taking firearms away from legal owners.
Admitting the latter would be a good start to having a worthwhile discussion. Pretending that one side is sane and the other paranoid simply insures the continued existence of the status quo.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 29, 2012 - 01:08am PT
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Shouldn't the focus be what if any laws and policies would be constitutionally acceptable, reasonably likely to be enacted, and reasonably likely to reduce incidents of mass murder?
Anders, I think Kris and I, among several others, have been trying to put the focus there. Certain other posters, however, can't get over their naive ideas that the Second Amendment can be changed easily, or that we can get most of the hundreds of millions of firearms currently in circulation in the U.S. out of circulation through simple legislation. They refuse even to confront the issues.
Some posters simply say, in effect, "Austalia and the U.K. have much lower gun crime, and much lower guns per capita, therefore legislation restricting guns will reduce the rate of gun violence in the U.S." The "therefore" is, of course, a non-sequitur. Trying to compare gun crime rates to gun restrictions by U.S. states and the District of Columbia shows no signigicant correlation. D.C. has the lowest rate of legal gun ownership per capita, and the highest gun murder (and all murder) rate, by far. Kentucky, the most armed state, has a murder rate per capita that is sabout 2/3 that of California, the most restrictive state for gun ownership.
I think Kris's point about focusing on the perptrator has merit if, for no other reason, because there seems to be very little that we can realistically legislate to make it measurably more unlikely that people intent on sending themselves and a bunch of innocents to the grave will succeed.
In any case, I appreciate your formulation of the problem. Ignoring the noise might actually produce an interesting discussion.
John
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