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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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So yeah, if you crack open, distill, and very carefully filter the endless array of creative / nightmarish bullshit that has passed for religion down through history, then sure, you can arrive at some pearls of common 'wisdom'. But a "totally impersonal and dimensionless intelligence", hmmm - that there is some heavy, and some might say biased, reading between the lines under the very best of circumstances.
The goofy thing about this rant is not so much it's inanity but rather it's facile insincerity. The givaway is the group lumping of religion and wisdom traditions, and the totally uninformed assumptions that Zen and Sufism, to list a few, are hot tub fandangos for knuckleheads too slow witted and insufficiently math minded to grapple with the real task of quantifying. Or that a dimensionless, impersonal intelligence constitutes a belief, and that it is some intermediary nether "place" for poets and fools to stretch out in. Either you have only rudimentary skills and understanding of "the English," or yer pappy never told you that "dimensionless" precludes a "place," nether or otherwise, hot tub or cold tub. Now kick Marlow out of the corner and put the pointy hat on and take your seat. You earned it.
Rather than simply say, "I have no experience whatsoever in this realm," why not try and make the whole thing as preposterous as possible.
What you really have here is veiled scientism. Plain and simple.
Lastly: "Seems to me you 'thou doth protest too much' on the materialistic front while dismissing the supernatural one and then languishingly exploit the vacuum in between for motives known only to you."
You've accidentally found your way here. What, exactly, is that "vacuum in beetwen?" Are you just tossing that out there or are you honestly interested in exploring that most slipper slab? DSo you really think I am the only person in history to seek adventures there, and that if not, they are, as Dr. F firmly believes, firmly and totally mistaken for the lack of a DVD of God juggling balls.
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nice post, Dr. F.
I see the same arguments here as on the last four threads where science and spirituality have been debated. Largo for sure is getting better at expressing himself and the wisdom traditions, and has certainly become more entertaining in the process.
I find I have little to add except to note that isn't it interesting from a sociological perspective that the Japanese who are so conforming in their public behavior have the freedom to combine science and spiritual traditions, modern technology and ancient culture, while the Americans with all their individual freedoms keep trying to make everyone conform on the inside - "you must believe either this or that, you must choose either this or that"? Of course the Frenchman De Toqueville also noted the same thing 200 years ago.
I also liked the statement by Martzen that "Since we have such a poor understanding of human psychology, it is understandable that people do whatever they can to control each other, no matter how ineffective". Hoewever, I do not agree with his next statement. "I guess this does not have anything to do with teaching evolution".
In my experience it has everything to do with the teaching of evolution to those for whom it is a new and often maligned idea. Give recognition to both religious/spiritual traditions and science in the beginning and then just present the scientific data without trying to force anyone to agree to anything. In the end, I am sure this brings about many more people understanding and sympathizing with evolution than not.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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If one teaches what is known about evolution, reasoning minds will see the truth in it. The world of human experience that surrounds it is another matter.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The other issue is that life couldn't have or didn't start here on earth. Or that it is not possible for life to start from an array of unrelated, inanimate, atomic, non-life particles.
This is a fallacy!
It may well be, but what, exactly, is your belief based upon that inorganic life became organic. Same old question, yes, but if you examine the non-answers, you'll see people are at a total loss to explain the basics beyond the idea that life emerged from "totally natural causes."
"Causes" implies an effect by virtue of an event or thing or interface from a previous point in time. Evolution and natural selection is not said to go backwards. It is always moving forward, in a linear progression. Maybe in fits or starts, but the process is thought to move from here to there. Now if something changes from basic and simply to almost unimaginably complex, and it do so through "natural causes," then there has to be some sot of mechanism by which said changes occur. Natural selection works well as a model once a thing has some specific form, but in the leap from inorganic to organic, "natural causes" one would think, would be governed or informed by something in the same way that matter conforms to the laws of physics and human being forms up according to the programing provided by DNA. However with the origin of life, which is questionably more involved and tricky than, say, gravity, we are told that we need not any comparable "law of physics" or DNA to guide or kick start the process. Rather, "natural causes" were enough.
Perhaps this is so, but you can't reasonably expect someone not to wonder just what "natural causes" is, in terms beyond simply objective functioning yet again.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Dr. F,
Your punctuation has improved dramatically. Very readable!
Excellent posts. Way to keep the charge, too.
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MH2
climber
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Good thoughts, Riley. Progress in science often comes from gut feelings, or intuition, about what new insight is within reach. After that comes the testing, logic, and analysis.
A wonderful thing about science is its inclusiveness. Its appeal cuts across cultural, religious, and political boundaries. It has workable methods for arriving at agreement.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I am constantly blown away by the scientific advances in our understanding of everything while our politics, superstitions and cultural norms stay relatively static.
That, to me as a social scientist, is the challenge. Even the author of the Nature of Scientific Revolutions said that sometimes a few funerals were necessary before science itself could progress. I have very much that feeling now while looking around at the contemporary political scene.
I really hope that in 20 years at most, we will have one of those punctuated equilibria, whereby the old order suddenly dies and another very different set of life forms begin to evolve and dominate. I've thought for a long time that world population growth would have to stabilize first (predicted for 2050), but with the advent of the internet, maybe not.
I'm sure the dinosaurs appeared forever entrenched until suddenly they were no more.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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There is No leap, organic molecules where here on the earth from the very start.
What is an example of an "organic molecule?" And by "the start" do you mean the big bang? If so, then you're saying that there was never a time when there was simply inorganic compounds floating and bubbling around, but that "life" was always here and present. Is that right?
JL
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go-B
climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
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Genesis 1
The Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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What is an example of an "organic molecule?" And by "the start" do you mean the big bang? If so, then you're saying that there was never a time when there was simply inorganic compounds floating and bubbling around, but that "life" was always here and present. Is that right?
Early evolution could have happened with molecules that would not be considered organic by any standard. They would not need to be organic to be able to reproduce. Some mineral crystals seem to grow and maybe reproduce. Maybe their decedents will be the next life to inhabit the earth when we are gone.
Dave
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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One definition of organic molecules are simply those that contain carbon. They are not alive, they are used in life on earth and that's why we are called 'carbon based' life forms. The individual elements of organic compounds existed since the big bang, but they form into organic molecules when the conditions are right. Even stars have organic compounds.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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The Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Go-b, that doesn't really add to the discussion. Neither do my comments but... It certainly doesn't help the teacher teach evolution. Even if he were to tell the students that information, and they all believe it, there is still evolution that can be seen and measured and reproduced in a lab that can be taught. It would not make sense to skip what even the Pope accepts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution
There is no scientific information that would stop the creation of the universe from having been caused by some other being although that would require that we ask; where did that being come from?
On the other hand, there are plenty of other spiritual beliefs that don;t include the Pope or catholic church.
Maybe God just created the heavens and filled it with dust and let the rest form on it's own. Then some dude just wrote it down wrong because even "the heaveans" was too complicated for those guys to understand 2000 years ago.
Dave
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Life was not here from the start!!
Since when, then? And what, exactly is life? to answer Ed's question. What distinguishes something as "living." What "causes" something to be alive? Is "life" totally and entirely indistinguishable from objective functioning? If so, if objective functioning and "life" are the very same things, then what distinguishes the objective functioning of inorganic things from living things?
"She's alive! Alive!"
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Since when, then? And what, exactly is life?
Really, you're asking Dr. F to give you an entire science education in a post?
And it's not (just) Dr. Ed's question. (WADR to Ed.) It's the lead question of biology.
You might start with three quarters (or two semesters) of organic chemistry. Starting with alkanes, alkynes and alkenes. Ending with a touch and go on carbohydrates, amino acids, nucleic acids and fats. That then would be two or three pieces of, let's say, a 100-piece puzzle.
P.S.
For organic chemistry, I'd highly recommend Organic Chemistry, by Morrison and Boyd. Looking back, I think I was incredibly lucky to have studied the subject under this textbook. It's a classic.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I'll go with Richard Feynman's definition of knowledge - that you don't really
understand something until you can explain it to a classroom of undergraduates.
I'm sure he would include online classrooms in that description as well.
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go-B
climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
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Life was not here from the start!!
Bullsh@t, or start cookin and lets see, can't even come close!
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Bullsh@t, or start cookin and lets see, can't even come close!
Can we get back to you in a few billion years?
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