Huge 8.9 quake plus tsunami - Japan

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bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 15, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
This geologist is predicting an 'event' 19-26 of this month.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Berkland

Some say he's just lucky.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 15, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
Website with many pictures from the nuclear power industry during other
times. - including a boneyard of all the vehicles used during Chernobyl-

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/npp2/npp2-eyeball.htm

Gene

climber
Mar 15, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
It’s probably a good bet that most of the workers at the Fukushima plant lived locally and may have lost family and homes in the tsunami. This, coupled with the incredible stress, anxiety, and personal danger from the long hours trying to wrestle the reactors back into stability, creates an unimaginable burden on them. I pray that overwhelming fatigue will not result in faulty judgment and poor decisions.

My thought and prayers go out to the hundreds of thousands of displaced people as the winter storm rolls in. No one has had time to grieve; survival is the issue.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 15, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
CC,

thats a cool site, thanks.
Brandon Lampley

Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 15, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
This seems to be an escalating nuclear disaster. It's probably safe to say the 50 workers who stayed behind and are working volunteered. God bless them and their sacrifice.

We freak out about the nuclear fallout cause its unique and scary. It's fairly insignificant to the hundreds of thousands who lost family, and are face more cold, thirsty, hungry, unsanitary nights. That's what threatens their lives immediately.

The nuclear fallout, which is getting worse, is also small beans compared to the short and mid term energy and resource shortages, and financial fallout for greater Japan.


golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 15, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
Bandon is right on.

Sec. Chu today said to the House:

Officials from the Department of Energy, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and other agencies have maintained close contact with Japanese officials and have provided the Japanese government with expertise in a variety of areas.

As part of that effort, the Department of Energy has sent two experts to Japan to provide advice and technical assistance. One is an emergency response representative deployed as part of the U.S. Agency for International Development Disaster Assistance Response Team, and the other is a nuclear engineer with Japanese language skills.

We are positioning Consequence Management Response Teams at U.S. Consulates and military installations in Japan. These teams have the skills, expertise and equipment to help assess, survey, monitor and sample areas. They include smaller groups that could be sent out to gather technical information in the area.

We have sent our Aerial Measuring System capability, including detectors and analytical equipment used to provide assessments of contamination on the ground.

In total, the DOE team includes 34 people with more than 17,000 pounds of equipment.

The Department is also monitoring activities through the DOE Nuclear Incident Team and is employing assets at its National Laboratories to provide ongoing predictive atmospheric modeling capabilities based on a variety of scenarios.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 15, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
The wreckage I see in the pictures of Japan simply shake me, deeply and emotionally. I cannot imagine the pit I'd feel seeing my home town in such a way.

Japan was heavily leveraged in nukes because they have zero oil reserves. Nukes for their electricity. Losing their nuke plants is a sword that cuts both ways--they loose the very thing they need to help repair the damage. "Recovery" requires energy, energy to build roads and infrastructure. This has historically been done with large amounts of oil. Japan has quite a bit to deal with, the entire nation. Now, immediately.

The problem that Japan will face (other than the abrupt obvious) is how to allocate for a scarcity of energy/oil. More cups are now out for the oil that Japan imports, meaning that existing allotments must change. The World will watch and learn as Japan (and the Japanese) deal with an immediate need to ration and allocate their oil.

This ~is~ the slap-in-the-face wake up call where we'll all start to understand just how important energy is to our way of life--that it's something that we must truly respect and carefully use. With nukes falling off the table of our energy "resources," the options move closer into focus.

In the coming decade, community living will be the frequency to tune to, and there's something introspective to be said for that. And I think we'll get an idea of what that means by watching Japan.
Guernica

climber
the second star to the right
Mar 15, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
Right on K-man, well said brother.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Mar 15, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
Thanks to the Nuclear Energy Industry....


We may all have to get a personal radiation detection device for ourselves....



No really... thanks

golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 15, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
Jingy,
this is probably not the thread for it, but look up where most Energy deaths come from. Coal. I have seen estimates of 10,0000 deaths per year due to the emissions. It's not near as sexy to complain about as the atom. Hell, we lost more coal miners than we have or ever will lose to Nukes and that is simply getting the stuff out of teh ground. Unfortunately, we humans are not rational about risks that we accept and or do not want to apply logic to decisions that have already been made.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Mar 15, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
"Losing their nuke plants is a sword that cuts both ways--they loose the very thing they need to help repair the damage. "Recovery" requires energy, energy to build roads and infrastructure."

That hadn't occurred to me.

I find it difficult to focus on the nuclear plants issue when, as so many have pointed out, the people affected are in dire trouble. But of course it is an issue.

Will the facilities in other parts of Japan be able to assist, or is this number of reactors having been taken down more than they will be able to make up for with the others?

Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Mar 15, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
Golsen,
Cool. I rented a RV parked in a side yard off Canal St. I will be on the scaffold crew at the outage at Hanford. They told as at Excel training the Hanford plant had a 4 rating. I will be careful; I will pick a fat partner and keep him between me and the source:-)
Roger
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 15, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
I will pick a fat partner and keep him between me and the source:-)

Perhaps Jeff is available. His head should be particularly useful for such purposes. It seems impervious to common sense or reason, so probably other radiation doesn't stand a chance.
Gene

climber
Mar 15, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
I am sure that they are doing everything they can. It is easy to sit here and type crap into a computer several thousand miles away.
True.

The authorities are especially concerned about pools for spent fuel rods at several reactors at the plant, including No. 4, where the pool has lost some of the water needed to keep the fuel rods stable. The rods are still radioactive and potentially as hot and dangerous as the fuel rods inside the reactors.
He said the Tokyo Electric Power Company, which runs the plant, would probably try to spray water into the reactor building through a gaping hole in the wall blasted open by an earlier explosion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/asia/16nuclear.html?hp

I admit I am ignorant about nuclear power generation and what’s going on at Fukushima. I ask that someone who better understands the situation post up.

Isn’t having fire engines shooting a stream of water through a hole in the wall almost grasping at straws at this point?

EDIT: Maybe grasping at straws isn't correct. Seems to me that recent reactions to the situation are probably not in the official procedures manual. I'd like to hear from someone who knows. Thanks.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 15, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
In the coming decade, community living will be the frequency to tune to

What does that mean exactly? It's nice to throw feel-good crap out there so you can sound noble and 'communal', but what do you mean? Elaborate.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 15, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
My tee Hiker...You are wrong about fattrad...He will buy out japanese energy stocks and jack the price of electricity thru the ceiling...thus fullfilling his mantra of exploiting mankind thru economic dominance..
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 15, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
Hey y'all, this is a good time to learn the difference between a rem and a rad.


.....

Jan,

If you're still out there, a couple of questions:

(1) Were you in Okinawa when it had the 7.0 in 2010?

(2) What's the highest point there on the island? Looks on a map it's got some 500' elevations. Do you all there feel there's plenty of high escapes in the event you had a tsunami like the one that hit Sendai?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 15, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
Golsen...the Energy corporations make those important decisions for us peons...Nuclear isn't that bad...Just put the waste in a jar and keep it on your closet shelf...
WBraun

climber
Mar 15, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
It's not the nuke that's the problem.

It's all that worthless crap everyone made to plug in to the box.

I thought all you people were so smart and thought outside of the box ......
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 15, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
http://www.stevequayle.com/ARAN/rad.conversion.html

* Roentgen: The roentgen measures the energy produced by gamma radiation in a cubic centimeter of air. It is usually abbreviated with the capital letter "R". A milliroentgen, or "mR", is equal to one one-thousandth of a roentgen. An exposure of 50 roentgens would be written "50 R".

* Rad: Or, Radiation Absorbed Dose recognizes that different materials that receive the same exposure may not absorb the same amount of energy. A rad measures the amount of radiation energy transferred to some mass of material, typically humans. One roentgen of gamma radiation exposure results in about one rad of absorbed dose.

* Rem: Or, Roentgen Equivalent Man is a unit that relates the dose of any radiation to the biological effect of that dose. To relate the absorbed dose of specific types of radiation to their biological effect, a "quality factor" must be multiplied by the dose in rad, which then shows the dose in rems. For gamma rays and beta particles, 1 rad of exposure results in 1 rem of dose.

Other measurement terms: Standard International (SI) units which may be used in place of the rem and the rad are the sievert (Sv) and the gray (Gy). These units are related as follows: 1Sv = 100 rem, 1Gy = 100 rad. Two other terms which refer to the rate of radioactive decay of a radioactive material are curie (Ci) and becquerel (Bq).

Bottom Line: Fortunately, cutting through the above confusion, for purposes of practical radiation protection in humans, most experts agree (including FEMA Emergency Management Institute) that Roentgen, Rad and Rem can all be considered equivalent. The exposure rates you'll usually see will be expressed simply in terms of roentgen (R) or milliroentgen (mR).


450 RAd's is LD50. That is 50% of the Population will die having received that dose. 450 is a hell of a lot.

Although radiation may cause cancer at high doses and high dose rates, public health data regarding lower levels of exposure, below about 1,000 mrem (10 mSv), are harder to interpret. To assess the health impacts of lower radiation doses, researchers rely on models of the process by which radiation causes cancer; several models have emerged which predict differing levels of risk.

Studies of occupational workers exposed to chronic low levels of radiation, above normal background, have provided mixed evidence regarding cancer and transgenerational effects. Cancer results, although uncertain, are consistent with estimates of risk based on atomic bomb survivors and suggest that these workers do face a small increase in the probability of developing leukemia and other cancers. One of the most recent and extensive studies of workers was published by Cardis, et al. in 2005 .[16]

The linear dose-response model suggests that any increase in dose, no matter how small, results in an incremental increase in risk. The linear no-threshold model (LNT) hypothesis is accepted by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) and the EPA and its validity has been reaffirmed by a National Academy of Sciences Committee (see the BEIR VII report, summarized in [3]). Under this model, about 1% of a population would develop cancer in their lifetime as a result of ionizing radiation from background levels of natural and man-made sources.

Ionizing radiation damages tissue by causing ionization, which disrupts molecules directly and also produces highly reactive free radicals, which attack nearby cells. The net effect is that biological molecules suffer local disruption; this may exceed the body's capacity to repair the damage and may also cause mutations in cells currently undergoing replication.

Two widely studied instances of large-scale exposure to high doses of ionizing radiation are: atomic bomb survivors in 1945; and emergency workers responding to the 1986 Chernobyl accident.

Approximately 134 plant workers and fire fighters engaged at the Chernobyl power plant received high radiation doses (70,000 to 1,340,000 mrem or 700 to 13,400 mSv) and suffered from acute radiation sickness. Of these, 28 died from their radiation injuries.

Longer term effects of the Chernobyl accident have also been studied. There is a clear link (see the UNSCEAR 2000 Report, Volume 2: Effects) between the Chernobyl accident and the unusually large number, approximately 1,800, of thyroid cancers reported in contaminated areas, mostly in children. These were fatal in some cases. Other health effects of the Chernobyl accident are subject to current debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation


I work with a lot of smart people on this. It is difficult to quantify the health affects of lowerer radiation doses. THere are arguments among health physicists on this stuff.

rj, everyone of us, whether we like it or not, made a decision by being hooked up to the grid. We are the consumers who have made the decision. We just dont like to picture it that way.
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