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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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...to which nine out of ten people don't relate...
This is a function of the fact that our society has become Idiocracy, not a function of any merits or demerits of particular academic disciplines.
And, just a note... less than nine out of ten people can "relate" to quantum theory.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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A touch of education about philosophy for you, HFCS. I will be quoting from a book you should LOVE: Scientists Confront Creationism (2007, W.W. Norton & Co., Eds: Andrew J. Petto, Laurie R. Godfrey). This book is a collection of essays from world-renowned (and Nobel prize-winning) scientists attempting to refute creationism (particularly the Judeo/Christian version of it). You see, unlike you, I IMMERSE myself in literature specifically designed to threaten my world view. (This is the first step toward intellectual honesty.)
Let's see what YOUR heroes have to say about the discipline of philosophy.
From the Introduction, by the editors, pages 19 and 20:
As much as scientists, by and large, don't particularly enjoy musing about philosophy, science itself is based on fundamental philosophical assumptions.... Philosophy of science is no laughing matter, and scientists would do well to read up on it, especially if they wish to counter creationism in the public arena (and they ought to do so, as professional researchers and educators).
Since YOU seem to want to represent (what you think of as) science "in the public arena," you "would do well" to drop your (stupid) dismissive attitude toward the discipline and "read up on it." Had you done so, you would not have (stupidly) dismissed what I was trying to teach you about Carnap vs. Popper, which is fundamental to an understanding of philosophy of science. Instead, YOU (stupidly) treat philosophy as a "laughing matter," which, as I have been saying, invalidates YOU as a proponent of your world view.
Ironically, your hero, Daniel Dennett, is not a philosopher of science per se. His area of specialization is much more in philosophy of mind. Again, this is my attempt to educate you just a tiny bit.
On that note, the form of your efforts (such as they are) is perpetually the same: "Science is our best truth-seeking mechanism, science has found no room for God, so there is no God." Even if I granted the premises (which I don't), your conclusion does not follow from the premises, a fact that no less a luminary than Robert T. Pennocok admits (on page 334):
My claim was that scientific methods, by themselves, do indeed remain neutral about such metaphysical possibilities. The success or failure of science might ultimately play a role in an argument that draws some conclusions about the metaphysical nature of the world, but that argument would necessarily be philosophical, not scientific.
YOU want to leap to metaphysical conclusions (that ironically depend upon a branch of philosophy that you sweepingly, and stupidly, dismiss), while one of your own heroes is at least versed enough in philosophy to recognize that scientific contributions to the question merely provide a certain sort of evidence, and that that evidence it itself not sufficient to justify the very leap you are trying to take with it!
I could go on and on (literally hundreds of passages I could quote), but this should be a bite-sized morsel that even you can chew on for awhile as you try to think of a way to INTELLIGENTLY respond (if that is possible). Really, "dude," try to read a LITTLE bit of the literature you so sweepingly dismiss before you rave on.
Or, you can simply continue to entertain, like the court fool.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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I get very excited when Science and Faith issues run smack into one another and offer cross-verifying support.
There is verifiable empirical data and evidence that what GOD says is true. Some people need this evidence and GOD is wonderfully supplying it. Just as "Doubting Thomas" would not believe in Jesus as the Resurrected Messiah unless he put his hands in the actual nail print scars within Jesus's hands and then, and only then, would he believe. What did Jesus do when he saw Thomas? He let Thomas put his hands into the nail prints scars within Jesus's own hands.
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/doubting-thomas-faq.htm
GOD is doing that today, but in a modern way.
I've said it before and I will say it again. In the end, Science and Faith in God will one day meet as one.
It gets closer everyday.
The oldest man-made temple ruins on Earth discovered near where the Bible describes the "Garden of Eden."
Mysteries - Is This the Garden of Eden? Part 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RrKXJ4jfPg&feature=related
Mysteries Is This the Garden of Eden? Part 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9xfcnUW_tY&feature=related
Do these mysterious stones mark the site of the Garden of Eden?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1157784/Do-mysterious-stones-mark-site-Garden-Eden.html
A plethora of Archeology discoveries that just do not fit our official understanding and history of the development of modern man. Man has a secret history that the Archeological scientific community is just not willing to face. Plenty of physical evidence of things just not accepted or explainable in the "official" development and migration of modern man.
The Book of Enoch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
Klaus Dona: The Hidden History of the Human Race
March 2010
http://projectavalon.net/lang/en/klaus_dona_en.html
The Miracle of the timing of the Star of Bethlehem, and the celestial phenomenon that happened on the day of Jesus's crucifiction. Provable using Keplar's Laws of Planetary Motion and software such as "Starry Night."
http://thestarofbethlehemmovie.com/
The abundant verification of the accuracy of the Bible through Biblical Archeology.
http://biblicalarcheology.net/
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html
The Modern Miracle and Discovery of Bible Code. It was meant for only our time. We had to have the computer first to really discover it.
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blbLke9kLIk
The Shroad of Turin. It does date from the time of Christ. It does have written language on it that identifies Jesus of Nazareth, and indicates his death. It is a burial clothe, and now we can verify the actual face and body form in 3D using the latest in science and technology. This is incredibly wonderful and amazing . . .
Researcher: Faint writing seen on Shroud of Turin
By ARIEL DAVID, Associated Press Writer Ariel David, Associated Press Writer
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=9143928
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8823336
We actually might now know what Jesus looked like! How incredible is that? To me it is very incredible and strenghtens and edifies my faith.
I caught the end of this program on the history channel and recorded it. I'll have to purchase the DVD to see the entire program.
The Real Face of Jesus:
http://www.history.com/shows/the-real-face-of-jesus
Check out the companion website. There are 3 good articles to read.
Purchase the DVD:
http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=261203&v=history&ecid=PRF-2102484&pa=PRF-2102484
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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Klimmer -- "Science and Faith in God will one day meet as one."
There's never ever been any kind of separation between the two.
Since God is omnipotent and omnipresent.
Without truth there can be no God since truth = God.
Even total gross materialistic science ultimately relies on "TRUTH".
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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As I am not a philosophy professor / small business owner, I cannot devote nearly enough time to properly address all the issues that have recently been raised.
All I'd like to say is that I am agnostic (intellectually that is, because I freely admit to a gut-feeling of atheism) because when I boil down all my reading, experience, speculations, etc., I'm left with no solid proof either way, just a very strong sense of the improbability of god.
It is possible that a god created everything, but the further you get away from that--I mean the more you try to say about the nature of god, still with no real evidence--the less probable it becomes.
edit-- don't even bother Werner, I know, I know --speculations!!! The horror!!!
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nasagal
Trad climber
South Bay SF
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
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Alpinist909-
extraordinary effort to persuade self and others.
Saul of Tarsus,(Saint Paul later) would be proud....
if you are right, no worries
if not.....
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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HFCS...
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
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if you are right, no worries
if not.....
"Suppose we grant that there is indeed some small chance that God exists. Nevertheless, it could be said that you will lead a better, fuller life if you bet on his not existing, than if you bet on his existing and therefore squander your precious time on worshipping him, sacrificing to him, fighting and dying for him, etc."
Richard Dawkins
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 12, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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Sums it up right here-
"Seems to me, we have to get rid of philosophy (as an academic discipline) because it really is such a ball and chain on progress." Peter Atkins
Beyond Belief: Enlightenment 2.0
Here, Peter Atkins says it better than me.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5497989647634565004#
Material esp relevant to this thread and this particular page and the value of philosophy as an academic discipline starts at time counter 9:45.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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Who you gonna believe about philosophy, HFCS? Peter Atkins or the top-gun scientists and philosopher (Dennett)? You've got a conflict to resolve here. Good luck with that. Keep us posted.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 12, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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"Which Bible did you as#@&%es read?" The Old Testament.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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From this I conclude lap band specialists should try very hard to get into heaven.
Gobee's heaven at least.
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Apr 12, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Weschrist / Donini
That group of fundamentalist Westboro Baptist Church protesters at the funeral of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq, the son of Albert Snyder, were wrong to do that and I want to thank Mr. Snyder for his son's service!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 12, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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More Peter Atkins-
"Theology obfuscates. I don't know what philosophy does, it interferes with understanding. And science illuminates."
Yeah, Peter Atkins is a "top-gun" scientist.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:13am PT
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I updated my previous posts with links.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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Wooo Hooo!
Unread crazy posts by crazy poster now have unclicked crazy links.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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Intellectual curiosity is beyond some people.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 13, 2010 - 01:17am PT
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Curious intellectualism: Bible code and reptilian humanoid alien angels, etc.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 13, 2010 - 08:03am PT
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Yeah, Peter Atkins is a "top-gun" scientist.
So, typically, you ignore the pressing question: What are you gonna do with the conflict between Peter Atkins and OTHER top-gun scientists (and your hero, Dennett) regarding the value of philosophy? So far I see that you've got Atkins on your side. Dennett will oppose you! I've quoted two other (and can quote dozens more) scientists that will oppose you. You want to sweepingly dismiss philosophy as having no value. So, you gonna go with Atkins all by himself?
If so, then what are you gonna do with Dennett? If no, then are you ready to retract?
Answer the question. Can we get a straight answer from you on one SINGLE (and quite simple) question?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 13, 2010 - 08:07am PT
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I don't know what philosophy does, it interferes with understanding.
Now THAT'S some crystal clear thinking: "I don't know what x does. Oh, wait, it does y. Yes, that's what it does. x does y, which is what I don't know what it does. Oh, wait a minute. Let's try that all over again. Ok... slowly now... I don't know what x does.... Oh, dang it! Do over! Really slowly now...."
ROFL
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