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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 24, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
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"My ears perk up when I hear talk of body rhythms and harmonics."
Rhythms and harmonics...
Which is an alternative way of referring to body mechanics. And you're right, the body clockworks are an amazing system to behold, to study, to appreciate, in and of themselves, much like art, for their own sake.
"What are we, robots?!"
....
"I suspect HFCS has been hacked! Or I woke up in Bizarro World, one." -dingus
Why Dingus, whatever do you mean?
For it seems what you quoted has always been my view.
Perhaps however I'm just obtuse this evening?
.....
"If I were ever abducted by aliens, the first thing I’d ask is whether they came from a planet where people also deny science." -Neil deGrass Tyson
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Mar 24, 2015 - 11:12pm PT
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HCFS wrote Rhythms and harmonics...
Which is an alternative way of referring to body mechanics.
Indeed, and offers a rich route for understanding behavior.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 25, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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the rhythm is gonna get you
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Mar 25, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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"If I were ever abducted by aliens, the first thing I’d ask is whether they came from a planet where people also deny science." -Neil deGrass Tyson
"The most creative point is at the intersection of science and the humanities..."
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 25, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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If I were ever abducted by aliens, the first thing I would ask is if I could please keep my undies on.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 25, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
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BTW, what's all this LHC malarky I hear about miniature black holes and parallel universes? The effort to create the former I was aware of - how does that upend our physics exactly?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 25, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
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Never mind. Got it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
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He said: In this case the question is "what is mind?", but I don't think "science" will be able to answer that question.
And he replied: Oh, but it will, Alex. Not long time ago we didn't know what DNA was or how neurons communicated. Now, we are getting ready for AI.
"What is mind" is in fact a totally trick question. A koan, of sorts. Why, because measurements, and running down the details of objective functioning are usually enough to answer the "what" question because there is no meta functioning that is not itself an objective function and ONLY an objective function. Ergo, "what" a rock is, or a rainbow, or a Corvette, can be exhaustively and entirely explained as objective functions. When we encounter subjective realities such as "mind," our discursive minds quite naturally look to a component-based review (measuring parts) to entirely explain what mind "is," but in fact all it can ever hope to do - and do with remarkable accuracy - is to provide us with what mind DOES in terms of objective functioning. Our discursive minds insist that subjectivity is an extension of objectivity, is a kind of material blowback sourced by the brain DOING something. And in this way we can consider mind as a thing - until closer inspection reveals that the thingness of mind, so to speak, only details what the brains does, not what mind IS.
Those who believe that objective functioning will quickly answer the mind question insist that a self-aware AI machine is right around the corner - till it's time to actually write the code for self-awareness, whence they will once and for all understand that the subjective is not the objective, and that the objective cannot be programmed to BE the subjective. The hope is that if the machinery is programmed and wired just so, sentience will naturally and simply emerge once the rig attains a tipping-point level of complexity. This whole shebang always harks back to the core belief that any phenomenon is sourced by some other material, condition, God, magic, etc. Put differently, all phenomenon are things, and all things can be described entirely by way of objective functioning.
Mind is a thorny exception to this belief, for most every attempt here to describe "what" mind is necessarily defaults back to what the brain does. This crazy no-escape (for the discursive mind) circle is what makes "what is mind?" a trick question skirted through purely objective observations, leaving the "what is mind?" question unanswered.
JL
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 25, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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Those who believe that objective functioning will quickly answer the mind question insist that a self-aware AI machine is right around the corner
Who are "those" and are they made of straw?
If you think that "What is Mind?" is a trick question you have fooled yourself.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 25, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
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'The Day that Boson Died'
I was on a brief sabbatical,
In the lovely month of May,
When I shank down to Planck length,
In the quantum realm that day,
I was looking for the God particle,
And found a Lilliputian,
Riding an electron,
To the quantum execution,
He said "Which way are you going?"
And he offered me a ride,
I was almost out of breath,
And much too tired to decline,
They were gathered all about,
There were particles by the score,
There were leptons, quarks, and photons,
And I heard a muon snore,
At the front of the mob,
A gallows was in place,
There standing on a trap door,
With a hood upon his face,
Was some kind of a boson,
Shamed and in disgrace,
Higgs was his name,
I heard somebody say,
Likely an understatement,
Things weren't going his way,
The drum roll began,
On the platform appeared,
An axion particle,
Who read from a scroll,
"Hear ye, hear ye,"
The axion then said,
"The criminal shall be hanged,
By the neck until he's dead,
"For crimes against the state,
And for civil unrest,
If the quantum and the macro,
We're ever rectified,
Then for blasphemy of God,
For that he has been tried,
And that God's been trumped by science,
For that now he must die!"
The drum roll then resumed,
The crowd began to hush,
The perpetrator trembled,
And plummeted to his fate,
At the end of a rope,
Where the physicists lost all hope,
That this savior had the answer,
To a theory yet unproved,
Wether String theory or M theory,
Or the theory of the Loop,
Would for certain go unanswered,
When the particle zoo itself,
Killed the only messenger,
As the theory of everything,
Was placed upon a shelf,
As the crowd slowly dispersed,
And I wandered about,
I heard the Lilliputian,
Hail me with a shout,
"I'm returning back to Largeland,
If you'd care for a ride?"
And I never returned to the quantum,
Since the day that boson died.
-bushman
03/25/2015
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 25, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
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for most every attempt here to describe "what" mind is necessarily defaults back to what the brain does
Well, I gave all you guys a week to answer these fundamental questions, and I check back and find little or no progress. I guess the "super" in Supertopo is misleading.
I had so hoped the issue of free will had been resolved. But nooooo . . . someone's been napping on the job!
Shape up.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 25, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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that's my cue...
mind
mīnd/
noun
1.
the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought.
"as the thoughts ran through his mind, he came to a conclusion"
synonyms: brain, intelligence, intellect, intellectual capabilities, brains, brainpower, wits, understanding, reasoning, judgment, sense, head; More
2.
a person's intellect.
"his keen mind"
synonyms: brain, intelligence, intellect, intellectual capabilities, brains, brainpower, wits, understanding, reasoning, judgment, sense, head; informalgray matter, brain cells, smarts
verb
1.
be distressed, annoyed, or worried by.
"I don't mind the rain"
2.
regard as important; feel concern about.
"never mind the metaphysical"
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 25, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
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free will
noun
noun: free will; noun: freewill
1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
synonyms: self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence
"they take for granted their blessed right to free will"
voluntarily, willingly, readily, freely, without reluctance, without compulsion, of one's own accord, of one's own volition, of one's own choosing
"I pursued a modeling career of my own free will"
adjective
adjective: free-will; adjective: free will; adjective: freewill
1.
(especially of a donation) given readily; voluntary.
"free-will offerings"
Translate free will to: Chosing to present mind bending super powers of observable phenomenon such as free soloing El Capitan.
(Free bewilderment)
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 25, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
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I'm close to agreeing with Moose. With no power over death free will appears feeble, with 'mind' freeloading along for the ride, 'mind' appears like baggage strapped with a bungee cord to the side of a barrel of free will tumbling off of Niagara Falls.
-bushwilderbeast
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 25, 2015 - 09:58pm PT
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With no power over death free will appears feeble,
That's because modern material science brainwashed itself and all the fools with it to "believe" they are the body.
Modern science uses stupid reasoning analogy as:
You are the car when you are driving it.
And when it stops working you are dead.
Stupid .....
Also the sub conscious mind is the stored past and can not be changed.
The conscious mind is what can choose.
The drooling moose has it all backwards due to poor fund of knowledge because he ultimately has no clue as the source of consciousness.
The living entity transmigrates from body to body according to the consciousness it develops in its present life.
So to devolve into an animalistic consciousness in this life you will get an animal body in the next life.
Fools will think to devolve into an animal state is wonderful.
The human form is very rare to get but fools all want to become animals .....
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 25, 2015 - 10:15pm PT
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Yes. The lovely animals, in human form:
'My Beautiful Death'
My parents meant well in a biblical sense,
When they bore me into this world full of hate,
And for all of my life I will always be grateful,
But into the mayhem they have joined the debate,
They had troubles for certain bequeathing their flaws,
But this dog eat dog world they did not create,
All the corpses of men left defiled and exposed,
From our history's wars so alarming the rate,
Would be better left scattered over the earth,
As a testament to crimes for our pieces of eight,
For mankind in his folly knows no better than to kill,
But if witnessing carnage might carry some weight,
We'd have curbed our primitive slaughtering act,
Having vaporized thousands and not filled the slate,
This simple man that I am with no cause,
And of no other life would I care to negate,
Never tasted nor tempted and nor would I try,
What is homicide simply and putting it straight,
Rarely justified by so unworthy a cause,
As vengeance or profit or defense of state,
I'll not place in the hands of unjust fellow men,
My disease ridden carcass when I meet my fate,
I'll cast off in a vessel not fit for a lake,
Into deep ocean waters and waves that are great,
Sliding under the currents to Davy Jones locker,
To feed the fish let's not equivocate,
For the bloodied hands of mankind will ne'er do,
To lay on nor handle my bones as of late,
Undeserving and sullied and unworthy and rank,
Who knows only of dying only to procreate.
-bushman
03/25/2015
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 26, 2015 - 08:28am PT
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Try not answering a cell phone.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Mar 26, 2015 - 10:04am PT
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Mar 26, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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cintune,
LOL, yes probably one of the most overlooked skills among humans is the ability to ask effective questions. I wish I were better at it. I keep learning.
But, I think I might reply to the question, "What is 'Mind'?" (The order of operation for that punctuation may be messed up.) with the following:
I often think of Mind as my ability of self-awareness and ability of self-regulation. Because of this attitude, I think I have ownership and stewardship of my body, but it is not who I am. At least, that seems to be what my Mind believes. At least that is a part of my definition of mind -- perhaps the functional part.
And I imagine that each person here as their own unique, personal, internal definition of 'Mind' to bring to this discussion. Shared lexicons do require some negotiation, I have found.
Thank you.
feralfae
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