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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 25, 2005 - 12:43pm PT
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"Weenis? Ammon? Lambone?...anything else "you've heard"?"
Nope, I take back what I said....which was admittedly just a hearsay rumor that I decided to repeat on a whim.
I did think the part about chiseling the hook placements was kinda lame...but whatever, not like I would try a route like that anyway. Otherwise a great long post. I usualy don't read the long ones, but he only repeated himslef a couple of times.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Oct 25, 2005 - 12:52pm PT
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I remember talking with Shaggy a long while back )I think we were on the Free Blast?); we were both sort of learning about aid climbing and he was particularly curious about what exactly one can hook: "like those-- (points to tiny flakes on SW face apron)- do they hook those things??" I couldn't imagine that anyone did, but now I guess we know. Yikes.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Oct 25, 2005 - 03:33pm PT
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Repeating an ugly slab route is a lot to ask. Why would you want to do ten or so pitches of hooking on a slab? Does this route have anything to recommend it? Also if I recall correctly, the drilled hole count is disproportionately high compared to other El Cap routes. (Source: Charles Cole article in Climbing in the late '80's?) Fact or fiction?
Still it would be interesting to get a modern opinion of the quality and merit of the route by a party that got to the top.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Oct 25, 2005 - 03:38pm PT
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If you were really into seeing just exactly what kind of teensy flake would hold up, didn't have a problem with long skidders(Minerals? I bet you've got a bitchen set of leathers, you could combine passions!)it would be a good way to do that. Other than that, sure, climb something else.
Ugly is kind of in the eye of the beholder. The shitstains are doubtless long gone...unless the slab-hooking thing really scares you and they make a comeback.
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 25, 2005 - 04:05pm PT
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Werner,
I came across this thread the other day and had chosen to not respond. Since you address your post to me (how do you know I’m lurking out here?), I think I should. First, I want to state that I think you and most of the others who have contributed to this thread do so honestly, so don’t take my comments to follow otherwise.
Thanks for clarifying that the “terrible mess” was your view of the response to the climb and not the climb itself. In just looking at your initial post I took you to mean that you viewed the climb as a mess in that it was in poor style (a rivet ladder). (To the post: “I … heard the route was a rivet ladder and put up in very poor style,” you replied, “Yes Ammon, it was a terrible mess for sure.”)
“Decades later you decide to clear up misinformation about your ascent. Thus the misinformation is then attributed to your fault as not bringing any information in the first place to the public.”
Well, I suppose there is some truth here, but it is not the case that no information was provided and quite the case of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I did write an article published in Climbing in 1983 which was sufficiently detailed to clearly dispel the false notions in this thread. For that article I was attacked as “hyping the route.” So I do think that sufficient info was out there, including a topo that shows the location of EVERY hole on the route and what type of hole it was. I think that more info was unnecessary and would have fostered the belief that we climbed the route for attention. But you’re right that speculation is rampant in our world and is to be expected. As for me, I am I’m sure for you to, I try not to advance speculation as fact. What isn’t acceptable in this thread are statements claiming first hand knowledge of things such as “a streak of feces and trash 200 meters long below their hangin' bivy camp.”
Our climbs not repeated [by anyone, ever!] because they aren’t aesthetic? Perhaps. But a number of parties have been intrigued enough to start an attempt, beginning all the way back to the winter of 1982.
BTW, a 20+ year belated thanks for acting as a moderating influence in the Valley.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 25, 2005 - 04:15pm PT
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Interesting thread. I am glad to read the post from the team member, a lot to digest.
Like Watusi, I climbed Aquarius during the Wings episode. It was truly something to see; portaledges right and left, many haulbags, we refered to them as the "Window washers™" 'cause that's what their movable camp resembled. I will post a photo.
I didn't know firsthand, many facts about their ascent in progress, just that they took an amazing amount of stuff, they went incredibly slow, and they had sparked ill will locally. I listened to a lot of the innuendo, I knew about the chopping / defacating thing, my prefudice was inclined against the washers. I heard it was their first El Cap route, "What audacity!"
We climbed Aquarius incredibly slowly, it was our first el cap route, and we sat out one of the same storms mentioned, too. They were a landmark. On the hike in we were very aware of their, ejecta, ( I particularly remember the, Odwalla ?) pee bottles, it was easy to go with the prevelent views.
While we were slogging up our route, it was an event when, one day, the window washers moved their camp. Took a day or so to move up to where they had fixed. You had to see it to believe it. They were doing something different than we were, no doubt; we were doing an early ascent of a trade route, they were, what were they doing? and everybody seemed to hate them.
We finished our route, hung two days, (Tuna pancakes)and climbed the Nose. The window washers were still there. We climbed some more, I had a birthday, and evenetually the washers were down.
I met one of those guys, his car (280-Z?) was parked next to the colonels rig in the lodges old back row. Enthusiastic, very upbeat, blasting "Rainbow" on the Stereo, "They're the best, man." Seemed a lot like other climbers I'd met. Not any more wierdo-esque than the rest of us.
I had reason to hike the west base of the capitain after that, Somebody, sure cleaned it up.
Another part of the mosaic.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 25, 2005 - 04:37pm PT
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"I didn't know firsthand, many facts about their ascent in progress, just that they took an amazing amount of stuff, they went incredibly slow, and they had sparked ill will locally..."
sounds like another prolific poster around here...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 25, 2005 - 05:52pm PT
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There seems to be an assumption that the drilled holes on the fifth ascent of the Sea were all original. Not sure if that's true, if I remember correctly the route got drilled out pretty early. For certain, variations with more holes than the original pitches were added.
In any case, at the time, 50 -75 holes per new El Cap route was a lot for the standard of the time. In the 90's, things changed, and 100 was a low number for many of the "new routes."
BTW: hole = anytime a drill was used to create or enhance a placement. According to the standard of the day, anyway.
Better ask the Bird....
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 25, 2005 - 06:26pm PT
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"sounds like another prolific poster around here..."
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kevin Fosburg
Sport climber
park city,ut
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Oct 25, 2005 - 08:40pm PT
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For what it's worth, I talked to Slater after he was up on Wings of Steel. He was very impressed with the difficulty of the climbing and said it was much harder than the Sea.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 25, 2005 - 08:44pm PT
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Dingus wrote,
"Hey ptpp... seems like you might have inadvertantly painted using the same broad brush that has been used against you... ie repeating inuendo and gossip as if it were fact.
Are you going to accept the Wings of Steel challege? Can you go where Slater backed off???
DMT"
Yes, I have thought about this, and reread my post several times. I hope you notice that I quoted HalHammer, and then wrote "It sounds like...." based on what HalHammer wrote. Since Hal seemed to write with conviction, I'll confess I probably believed him, though covered my ass more or less by using the quote. At any rate, it was inadvertent.
So I'm not sure I need to apologize or not, but I'll add a "sorry 'bout that, mate" just to be safe.
As for the second part, Dingus, are you freakin' nuts?! That route sounds way too hard and scary. However if you wanna go halfers on the hook pitches, then let's do it.
Thanks, Richard and Mark, for telling us your side of the story. Until such time as someone actually goes up there and repeats it, we'll take yer words for it. It's amazing that there was so much controversy and misinformation regarding this route? Why do you suppose that is? You really shoulda oughta have spoken up a little more vocally, eh?
But there's one thing I just don't get:
You say you spent a month up there or so, and hauled 1200 pounds of stuff, yet took no beer?
I just spent two weeks on El Cap, hauled less than a quarter of what you guys took [yes, there were two of us], and we brought PLENTY of beer. Booze notwithstanding, what the heck did yous guys bring up there, anyway?????
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 25, 2005 - 10:10pm PT
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I'm not sure all the info I posted was exactly true or not. One of the best sources I got the same opinions from was a guy named Mark Spencer who seemed to know the whole scoop. With the only exception of this one thread I've repeatedly heard the story that the Wings of Steel climbers used a lot of bathook ladders over and over again from other sources too. One of the only other on-line postings I've been able to find from Mark Smith I believe; was a debate by him over why bat hook holes are better than rivits, so that makes even less sense If now the story is no bat hooks were used. I've never been on the climb. Looking at the route topos seems to agree with this at a glance??? Somebody else should climb the route, that's been said enough.
Working for the company in Wawona longterm, all I know is I still get a lot of shiat everywhere I go for being affiliated with these guys and the Wings of Steel at all as a Seventh Day Adventist. Camp Wawona? Oh that's where those "losers" who drilled El Cap were from!!?!??!?!?!? They your friends, your boss???? I was given a hard time again when I applied for my first AMGA course. On a side note, I was even refused sale of a bolt kit from the Mountain Shop. This is decades later; and I can't say I don't get fed up. Certainly I haven't taken to endorsing their refuted tactics.
If the rumours and seeming reputable stories about your routes aren't true... Mark and Richard why have you not defended them until now? As far as I can see your ascent has gone down in the books as the most disgraceful and poor style climb is Yosemite valley history regardless of what the actual story might be. I don't care if you don't climb for others, who does? You can't not defend yourself; there is no way I'd let a reputation like that continue, especially one that's not true. Heck...I've been told by an extremely famous modern day valley climber that he would out right kill you guys if you went for another ascent on El Cap again; something along the lines of: "burn their houses, steal their cars, kick their arse, and if they go anywhere near a trade route I'd be so mad I'd kill 'em."
4 questions though...
1. How did you haul 1200 lbs of gear with you up the route? How many ropes did that take?
2. Did you do the 2nd free ascent of a Blue Moon on Wawona Dome after Floyd Hayes and Mark Spencer?
3. A few names: James Hanson, Jerry Dodrill, Tony Yaniro, Daniel Moore do you know or did you work with any of these guys?
4. Mark what happened at Swan Slab with Ken Yager and YMS?
You can also E-mail me at rctetz@puc.edu thanks.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2005 - 10:38pm PT
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Richard in his original post said:
"Well... ok... I could say lots more, but that's my rant for the decade. See you again in another decade or so. I'll check back in thereabouts to see if any clarity/sanity has infected the climbing community or this forum (doubtful)."
So he only talks once a decade .......?
Now why would someone say something as stupid as this if they are trying to defend themselves? ("See you again in another decade or so")
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Oct 25, 2005 - 11:05pm PT
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I remember reading about this sh#t in the rags. Imagine if you will, a climber learning during the Granite years, a time where YOS was reverred as THE WORLD CLIMBING CENTER. And I learned on a granite area , LCC, with RR's books as my guide. Then there is so much sh#t flyin.
It seemed totally counter to the sport. Lets face it, we have no WRITTEN rules, but if you f&&&in cross the unwritten line you had g**damn better not show your face!
Unfortunatley, the way it was portrayed in the climbing media at the time was that the FA team of Wings of Steel crossed over an unwritten Yos rule: If you want to do a FA on El Cap, you must first pay homage to those locals that at that time consider themselves GOD. You must pay homage in the right way, as we see fit. We will not tell you what way that is.
Sorry, these are observations from a person who has climbed for 30 years and has done a few things in their time. Nothing to be famous for except in my own mind.
The other thing! Where did all you guys who heard on good faith that what the FAist did was horrible? HAS ANYONE EVER TRIED TO CLIMB THE THING AGAIN? GET REAL! IF CLIMBERS OF THE YEAR 2005 ARE BETTER THEN THOSE OF OVER 20 YEARS AGO, WHY HASNT ANYONE REPEATED THIS CLIMB?
Sorry, I get real tired of climbers reading the mags as I did, or hearing it on good faith saying these guys screwed the pooch. Those of you that are doing that are spreading the same kind of stuff my father did on the lawn when i was a kid.....All it does is make the grass grow.
While my opinion of Rob S is not the highest for good reasons, I respect the fact that he let these guys know their route was a hardmans route. SH&&ing on their ropes was chickensh#t. And those of you who were not even climbers then and said bad rumours are so FOS that I want you to come visit my lawn next spring......
There now, my rant for the evening.....
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mike hartley
climber
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Oct 25, 2005 - 11:53pm PT
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My bet was always that Mark and Richard had been given the shaft. Not that I knew them or had ever seen their route. I had a friend put up a new route on Middle Cathedral about the same time. Good style - ground up, hand drilling from stances. He was threatened with a beating later by the locals for not asking permission first. Same for Jimmy Dunn. There are others easily added to the list.
Sh*tting on the guys ropes? Definately showed the character of the local rock police.
People's perceptions and memories are always distorted and inaccurate to some degree but I'm betting on Mark and Richard even more after reading their reply above.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 12:23am PT
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Mike H. what route on Middle Cathedral was that?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 26, 2005 - 01:28am PT
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Well, I'm quite impressed by the number and quality of the follow-up posts, and the tone of most of them motivates me to say a bit more. I know I said "in another decade or so," but the responses to my post have been MUCH different from what we have come to expect over the years. So, I'll invest a bit more effort here, if you can sit through another lengthy post.
A common complaint in the replies is that Mark and I didn't do enough to "defend ourselves" during the last twenty-plus years. Werner even suggests that we are responsible for the sheer mass and impenetrable density of misinformation, given that we didn't defend ourselves. So, rather than to be thought "stupid" in addition to everything else, I will continue now to "defend ourselves".
In his recent post, I think that Mark did a good job explaining that we DID make every reasonable effort to defend ourselves, but it seems that some here have missed his points. So, let me list the things we did over the years. We each wrote articles and got them published in the mags (Climbing and Rock and Ice). We toured all over the country giving slide shows to tens of thousands of people. During the months surrounding the ascent itself, we spent ENDLESS hours attempting dialog with people in the Valley, and we spent YEARS afterward at major climbing areas all over California explaining ourselves to the MANY people who would gather around to badger us. And, as Mark has said, our every attempt to defend ourselves has been cast in the climbing press as "hyping the route," coupled with lengthy published diatribes devoted to defaming us yet further.
In fact, we climbed the Sea partly to demonstrate that we weren't the inept losers we were being cast as (although the primary reason was that we wanted to see for ourselves where we stood, because Wings sure seemed damn hard to us)! When we climbed the Sea, it was being touted as the hardest rock climb in the world, and we were being challenged to give it a shot (along with public exhortations to the gods that we would meet our demise in the attempt). So, we did it without adding a hole, without taking a fall, and in a reasonable period of time (given our Sabbath days off).
Later, various authors (our critics) in the mags were frothing at the mouth about Intifada in Utah. This was called the hardest rock climb in the world, with tales of A6 (new rating scale), death anchors, and the likely possibility of ripping multiple pitches to the deck. So, we did the second ascent of that heap, downgraded it RADICALLY for the pile that it was, and published an account of that in Climbing. Those two climbs were partially done as attempts to "defend ourselves".
Our attitude during those years was, "Go ahead critics, call something the 'hardest rock climb in the world,' and we'll go climb it and downgrade it." But we got past that attitude for the self-serving, reactionary phase that it was.
At any rate, actually, I'm not sure what more we could/should have done to defend ourselves. What we found, and what we have ALWAYS found (which is WHY I had no intention of devoting any more time to this forum after my first post), is that NOBODY would actually HEAR us or believe us. Our critics have been on the "in," and we have been on the "out". It has always been assumed that we were lying about the route, and the people actively and vindictively spreading the actual lies about us have been well-known, highly-regarded climbers.
It turns out that people are inclined to believe someone they know, who knows someone, who knows someone else, who knows one of these highly-regarded climbers, and so the rumor-mill is pervasive! There would not have been time in our lives to explain to all the people needing an explanation, we have utilized the climbing press to the extent we were allowed, and people simply have not believed us.
Then, later, as I said, even Slater couldn't get a letter to the editor printed in Climbing magazine. So, the more public avenues were closed to us. What, Werner, were we supposed to do then? Hire out TV spots? Take out ads in the mags? I'm honestly not sure what you expected us to do. Almost nobody has wanted to take our side seriously, and we have wasted amazing amounts of time and energy getting nowhere toward changing minds. So far from our posts in this forum being our first attempts to defend ourselves, we have been trying ACTIVELY for decades!
The whole experience has been very eye-opening for me, as I have seen first-hand the amazing power a small group of credible people can utilize to get an entire community of people to believe a lie, and this in the face of us being VERY vocal and active in our own defense.
Witness the length of my posts as evidence of the effort it takes to "respond". Werner can in a line pop off with something like, "as stupid as this," yet, it takes significant space to explain WHY I would say something like that. EVERYTHING about the ascent requires significant space and effort to explain, and prior to this second post, I had come to conclude that such effort was entirely wasted.
On that note, I honestly want to thank the many posters for their obvious interest in finding out the actual truth, and for quite apparently taking my post seriously. As you can imagine, our dealings with the climbing community at large has usually been quite painful, and the reply posts so far have been very refreshing to me.
Another point that bears mentioning, since people on this topic keep asking about repeat attempts, is that Mark and I quit counting aborted attempts on the route after about fifteen. It was easy to see "new" attempts, because one of the bolts about 1/3 of the way up the first pitch kept sprouting new rap slings. We counted more than fifteen new rap slings in the first two years alone, and after that we just quit keeping track. Of course, we don't know how many of these "attempts" were just treating the first pitch as a "base route," but the fact remains that people were NOT making it to the first anchor because the first pitch anchor slings never changed. Maybe that has changed since we stopped keeping track, but, nevertheless, a LOT of people have been on at least the first pitch, and so they KNOW that the route is NOT some sort of ladder. The route has been attempted MANY times, and the route itself defends us!
Over the years, one has to ask how much time and anguish the defense effort is worth. I mean, HOW much do you expend before you finally say, "Well, it's pretty clear that we can't win even battles, much less the war," and you retire from the field? And comparing this fiasco with the Robbins/Harding debacle (as has been done elsewhere) doesn't even come CLOSE! Robbins was HONORABLE in his dealings with Harding, a point that Harding has admitted to me many times, and Robbins actually respected Harding in spite of their radical disagreements. I have seen in the later generation of climbers an unwillingness to treats others in honorable fashion. Mark and I are not the only ones who have been defamed unjustly; we just happen to be the ones who have probably gotten it worse than anybody else.
So, I hope I have hereby answered the question, "Why have you not defended yourselves until now?" We have never totally ceased from defending ourselves (witness my first post here), but over the decades of making NO dent in the defamation, we HAVE begun to tire of it.
Thanks again all for actually stimulating me to "pick up the fight" once again. :-)
I'll answer some of the logistical questions in another post.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 01:44am PT
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Yes It worked, .... eh Richard.
That's why I "popped off" the one liner to get you to respond because you said you will come back in a decade, now that wouldn't do us any good, would it?
Now it sounds like you need some kind of "closure" to relieve the pain in your heart after all these years.
How will that work, Richard? Some unseen forces in your destiny by the powers of karma have brought all this on to you. How will you make amends with your fate?
Best wishes, Werner
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 26, 2005 - 01:49am PT
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A few logistical answers...
We did haul seven bags off the ground, for a total of 1200 pounds of stuff. We took along eleven ropes, mostly 11mm and a couple of 9mm. We fixed three pitches from bivy anchor to bivy anchor and then devoted one day to moving the massive armada up those three pitches.
By the time we reached the top of the slab, we were down to two bags (containing mostly gear, clothes, sleeping stuff, etc.), and we had been on the wall for over a month. We were also down to about 1200 calories per day at this point. Our planning for about twenty-five days on the wall was woefully short, and we paid the price for that miscalculation! The last week of the ascent, we were down to 600 calories per day, and we were getting quite weak.
Keep in mind that we knew we were going to be on the slab for a LONG time, which totally changes the way you have to think about food and water. For a week or two, you can go light on water and eat pretty much any sort of garbage that turns your crank. But as the weeks pile up, you have to start thinking about how your body is going to respond to the abuse. Effects are cumulative. So, expecting HOT weather that never came, we planned on a gallon of water each, which amounted to fifty gallons of water (450 pounds of just water). We poured water out all the way up the wall, but I have also been on El Cap many times when a gallon a day didn't even come CLOSE to what I was needing. So, we had more water than we needed, as it turned out, but to do over again, with more summer El Cap experience under my belt, I would have taken MORE water, not less. You cannot keep yourself in a state of chronic dehydration for that long without significant ill effects.
The same principle applies to food. We brought up balanced meals, which included a lot of canned fruit and vegetables. We planned on 2500 calories per person per day, although looking back that was clearly not enough.
In answer to the "beer post" (ptpp), :-), prepare to be amazed, but neither of us like how it tastes. We both like various wines, but they don't do much for dehydration.
I'll give more details if asked... but I'm trying for a "short" post this time.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2005 - 01:53am PT
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sounds like you maybe think your route is important or something?
are you saying you think it is the hardest route on El Cap because it's unrepeated?
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