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Psilocyborg
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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Enlightenment cannot be attained. It can be experienced, but it isn't a trait that becomes you
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 18, 2015 - 10:17am PT
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I don't think about enlightenment much - which, I hear, is the recommended approach to experiencing it. It's like love. The more you pursue it, the faster it runs from you. You can invite it through your actions, however.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 10:20am PT
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"I believe, as neuroscience and genetic testing improve, we will learn that most violent criminals have physical reasons for why they broke the law. We may learn that it is not their fault that their brain structures and pathways predispose them to violence just like it is not a diabetic patient’s fault that her blood sugar is high."
"Such advances would have profound repercussions for how we punish crime in this country."
But would they?
I wonder.
Just how much are we (supposed) to "override" our innate moral sentiments (or "moral intuitions") in this evolutionary game of living?
.....
brain damage vs brain difference
"But I would go further... adding something I’ve always believed: every criminal has “brain damage” in the sense that the constitution of their brain, as determined by their environmental history and genetics—in conjunction with the situation in which they found themselves when they transgressed—had no choice but to commit a crime that damages society. Nearly all philosophers agree with that kind of determinism. A criminal could not have done otherwise at the moment of his crime, just as we have no choice about whether to have a sandwich or a salad at lunch." -Jerry Coyne
Taking into acct our innate natural spectrum of differences...
When does a brain difference become brain damage?
.....
Mull this over lunch...
"No matter how “smart” you are, your choices are just as constrained as anyone else’s."
:)
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:18pm PT
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"Such advances would have profound repercussions for how we punish crime in this country."
Probably not.The "advances" indicated in the above are illusory, and generally will encounter a lack of proof in precisely describing much more than a merely theoretical and speculative deterministic course in human behavior.
At the end of the day society is still confronted with a serial killer,for instance, with an IQ of 130, or higher, who hunts and kills human prey.
His defense lawyer can parade an entire litany of experts who will testify that this killer's physical brain displays neuro-anatomical difficulties processing emotion, guilt, empathy, etc.. Or even,as in the case of Ted Bundy, that his grandparents were both extremely deranged (his grandfather showing a propensity to necrophilia and sadism directed at animals).
Why don't most courts and juries buy into these well-known attempts at letting criminals off the hook? The answer mostly lies with the legal requirement in proving "the insanity plea" as being hinged on the capacity of the perp to know and to discriminate the difference between right and wrong.And to grasp the consequences.
Most habitual criminals, those to be found in prisons and on the streets, do not typically fall into those range of personality disorders that can be shown to be characterized by a demonstrated inability to grasp the illegality of their actions.Nor can it be shown that they suffer from "brain damage" with a causal connection to criminal activity: further producing a cognitive incapacity to know that such activity is in fact wrong,against the law, and hurts others.
A criminal could not have done otherwise at the moment of his crime, just as we have no choice about whether to have a sandwich or a salad at lunch
This kind of unrealistic thinking catapults its underlying determinism into the realm of the magical.
Methinks the author has been a criminal defense attorney for a tad toooo long.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 10:11pm PT
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our moral sense justifies the decision that people with "brain damage" should be executed or locked away for life for anti-social behavior.
if you had to decide that without the moral authority, and solely as in protection of the "social order" the entire act of justice takes on quite a different sense.
what is the ultimate moral authority? especially if there is no "free will"?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 18, 2015 - 11:36pm PT
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what is the ultimate moral authority? especially if there is no "free will"?
isn't "anti-social" rebelion the same as "anti-environment" rebellion?
if you stand around, you get eat'in. if you screw someone else's girlfriend, you gt beat'in.
those being the root morals.
but the "'ULTIMATE' moral"?
Is man's, or should man's, "ultimate moral authority". Be that any different than that of the Lion's or the Elephant's?
Possible if they don't have morals yet, maybe it's morals that made us evolve?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 18, 2015 - 11:51pm PT
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Never got the whole "punishment" thing regarding crime. That thinking seems childish to me. To believe that the unfixable is not unfixable. To me it's a matter of protecting society from those who are a danger or harmful to it. Including revengeful victims.
I don't care why they are dangerous. If in time they are no longer dangerous.. release them. Until then detain them. No need to be mean to them or treat them more poorly than the unfortunate need to detain them requires.. but they can't be in society. I don't think killing a basically harmless prisoner is a power a government with an imperfect legal system should be given. So whether a brain damaged person should be executed is a moot point given that overlying principle.
Of course real justice is a bit more complicated than that..how does one determine if someone is still a hazard to society? jail time may allow some people to correct their behavior, perhaps treatment can help too..then there is deterrence and a need to consider the anger of those who care about the victim or else suffer more violence from childish revenge acts.
Why they are dangerous just doesn't seem to matter.. so what if they could not help it? If the physical structure of their minds forced them to be a problem? What does that have to do with protecting society from them?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 21, 2015 - 11:29am PT
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Coming to a fine link near you, 19 May 2015...
The Soul of the Marionette,
by John Gray
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mar 21, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
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Once we let go of the notion of free will, we are free of all negative thoughts about other people, like The Chief, Ward, or TGT!
That's a really silly thing to say. You can only be trolling.
I personally don't possess any more negative thoughts directed at other people than you do, regardless of my philosophical position on " free will".It's a rather puerile notion to think that someone with whom you disagree can only be motivated by bad thoughts about others simply because they are adult enough to consider how society might best deal with thieves, murderers, and child molesters--- with the end in mind of preventing such individuals from destroying innocent lives.
You are not free of negative thoughts about others my friend. The only thing you are free of is putting yourself out there on the line as regards a very difficult subject . And it does no good to hide behind a discussion of free will in this context.
The same thing applies to the "we" you have included in your comment.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mar 21, 2015 - 04:53pm PT
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Get outta here , he was serious. Ask him.
Nevertheless , I like the Moosedrool-meister
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 22, 2015 - 03:44am PT
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Take for example;
deadbeat dads, gold diggers, heartless sociopaths, innocent victims, random acts of indiscretion, police violence, wanton violence, collateral damage...
Are they all a result of predeterminism, free will, social injustice, or the heat of battle?
'The Road Raven'
He started on the 405,
And he swooped to the big divide,
Didn't stop over Angels Crest,
Til he tasted of the best,
A deer was hit just past the 5,
Unlucky not to be alive,
Would keep the Raven fed,
And soon at ninety nine,
He continued to survive,
All the way the 46,
On the rabbits he would thrive,
Till he got to the 101,
And ran into an ex-wive,
And you probably know the rest,
Alimony, it ain't no jive.
"Uh uh. I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?"
The idea of a predetermined universe allows for way too many people to be irresponsible for way too much crap,
as they do anyway.
Still, I dont believe in luck.
I absolutely believe we posses free will,
in any case.
-bushman
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 22, 2015 - 06:57am PT
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I absolutely believe we posses free will,
in any case.
And you might have it.
And it would be convenient for us robots to have someone to blame.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:36am PT
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And it would be convenient for us robots to have someone to blame.
Get in line...
Or,
Welcome to my robot army, now get in line.
MH2...
Isn't that some kind of Avian Virus?
'The Short life of the court Jester'
And to the king the joker spoke,
As jokingly the joker joked,
"Your grace, I meant no disrespect,
I kid you not, that is no joke."
His head did roll,
The blood did flow,
With embers floating all about...
Flickering they'd go.
Another log went on the fire,
The king would have the final joke.
-bushman
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:55am PT
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MH2...
Is that some kind of Avian Virus?
Could be, could bee...
However, as I remember it, I got directed to this Forum when local climber/historian Anders Ourom began a thread about Squamish. This was before Bushman's time. Anders went by the user name Mighty Hiker. He was often referred to by other posters as MH. I chose MH2 for myself to give people an idea of where I was coming from. That was before I knew what MH stood for since I did not pay much attention to details of the site.
So it was not an unconstrained choice. You are free to make of that what you will.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:56am PT
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In any discussion of free will and morality, you might find his discussions of interest. This is one among many of his talks available on YouTube:
Daniel Dennett Is Free Will an Illusion December 12, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh8o6L05iGo
enjoy
feralfae
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 22, 2015 - 08:22am PT
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I'll have to check it out, thanks Feralfae.
MH2,
Funny how those things work out.
At my local RC club where I race model planes, when I started at it ten years ago the contest director gave me the pilot's call sign of 'bushman' in deference to my tree service ownership. It was a friendly dig at my occupation...I would have preferred a more glamorous title, but knew that among this crowd the nickname could have been worse.
Bushwhacker, the whacker, bushy, bush.... I cringe at the last one, having been a liberal my whole life. But I keep my mouth shut. It's actually fun to learn how to endure insults, criticism, and ribald comraderie, and then dole it back out much the same as in my climbing years, though my skin was much thinner in my youth.
Same as a lot of us do here.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Mar 22, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
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Thank you for the link ^ to that excellent Ted Talk, HFCS.
I want a vest! :)
feralfae
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:01pm PT
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'The Domino Theory'
I absolutely believe we posses free will,
in any case.
-bushman
Well, as it turns out I might be wrong about that, and as usual, I've been wrong before. I realized this when I noticed that in the evening whenever I try to watch a movie, read a book or some other long passage of writing, or view a YouTube video I fall asleep. I wake myself and begin again only to fall asleep again. I tell myself repeatedly to stay awake, yet I find that I'm unable to. If I were driving an automobile I would have to crank the music and roll down the window to stay away, or pull over lest I crash.
The realization came to me tonight that in all my years I have been unable to exercise free will in every circumstance, try as I might, even with strong motives and the best of intentions. It's not a matter of will power, mind you, for I have certainly been able to follow through with many goals I have set for myself in life. No, this is what happens when I need sleep and I'm in repose. My conscious mind simply turns off like a light bulb, regardless a conscious decision to remain awake. The unconscious mind has decided for me at that point, overriding my supposed idea of free will.
This pretty much sucks because regardless of my belief in science my principles regarding free will and personal accountability will have to go out the window as I consider the deeper ramifications of destiny and a pre-deterministic universe.
Must have been in the cards all along.
The last bastions of my preconceived ideas about reality are beginning to fall away like a carefully prearranged row of dominos that divide into separate rows as they go along with each row disappearing into the void at random intervals and each row representing a different preconceived notion of the nature of existence. In short, I'm gradually finding that I know next to nothing about our place here in the universe, or maybe it's just a brain tumor.
But I still don't believe in luck. Or do I? There goes another row of dominoes.
-bushman
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