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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 31, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
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The Constitution did not address the issue of just where "the right to keep and bear arms" could be exercised as I recall, but I haven't read it lately.
Two things are of note to me.
1) The phrase, "... the right to..." presupposes an existing right. The 2nd amendment does not itself grant that right; the right is presumed by the amendment, and the purpose of the amendment is to clarify a limitation on the feds. To whit....
2) "Shall not be infringed" is what the feds are constrained by. So, in answer to your question of "where," the answer is "everywhere" are the feds constrained from "infringing" on the right that is presumed by the 2nd amendment.
People get hung up on what a "militia" is, and so forth. But not only is that clarified by many founders' documents, but the question is a genuine red herring. Regardless of whatever happens to the 2nd amendment or how it ultimately gets interpreted by this or that court, the right itself does not depend upon the 2nd amendment. So, even if the 2nd went away entirely, the enumerated powers clause and the 10th would also have to go away to truly and legally empower the feds to do much in the way of gun control.
Of course, the interstate commerce clause perpetually gets interpreted to mean basically anything, thereby granting the feds the exact sort of sweeping powers that the founders clearly never intended it to have. So, really, all bets are off as we head perpetually deeper into a benevolent tyranny.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Dec 31, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
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^
The phrase, "... the right to..." presupposes an existing right.
No it doesn't.
As to the rest, not really. Saying "where" is not an infringement of the right whether it was pre-existing or not. The right still exists. It is not taken away.
Compare in your leisure, "the right to privacy" and how that has been modifeid over the years. For example "search and seizure".
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 31, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
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BTW... as the new year is almost upon us, I want to say in sincerity that the ST community is wonderful, and I appreciate being a part of you. Even our most heated debates are worth having, and I'd rather have them with fellow climbers than any other people.
You are the best, and I'm honored to participate!
HAPPY 2015!!!
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Dec 31, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
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A good new year to you also, mb1.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 31, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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Saying "where" is not an infringement of the right whether it was pre-existing or not. The right still exists. It is not taken away.
Please look up what the word "infringed" means.
If the feds say, "You can keep and bear your gun in the confines of your smallest closet between the hours of 1 and 2 in the afternoon on Monday," no rational person is going to respond: "Cool! The right has not been infringed."
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Dec 31, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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"You can keep and bear your gun in the confines of your smallest closet between the hours of 1 and 2 in the afternoon on Monday,"
Did somebody say that?
Use your leisure time and check out "right to privacy" as I mentioned.
I believe you'll find that the courts have decided repeatedly that there are no absolute rights.
If you're fixated on gunz, then look at how many restrictions already exist, supported by even "die-hard" [good one zB] gunzrighters on the courts.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 31, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
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The problem with your argument is that it argues from violations to justify yet further violations. It's like arguing this way:
I step on your toes, and you don't say anything. So....
I stomp on your foot, and you only say, "Yikes!" So....
I hit you in the gut, and you only say, "Please stop!" So....
You clearly have no absolute right against assault.
I'm not arguing for an "absolute right" in the sense you are suggesting. Criminals, for example, have agreed by force of law to have certain rights infringed. But the constitution was indeed intended to recognize absolute negative rights among law-abiding citizens.
The United States was never designed to be "safe" in the sense that people now want to see it. It was designed to be free in a sense that the world had never before seen. People now are falling all over themselves to throw away rights in favor of "safety," which is both sad and pathetic. Safety is a chimera, while rights are real and substantial.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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and the toddler that killed his mother at the Walmart.......
If only there had been a good, armed citizen that could have shot the child before he'd had a chance to get a shot off...
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WBraun
climber
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Nice ^^^ be the usual real azhole you always are
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Will the 2 year old be tried as an adult and does a dirty diaper come under the stand your ground law...?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Regarding the sad incident with the 2 year old. I've been watching/reading news reports on this looking for the answer to one question and seen nothing.
The average trigger pull for a double action pistol, a revolver or the first shot of a semi-auto is a lot for a two year old to muster up. Ideal trigger weight is about 5-8 lbs. My Beretta is heavier. In any case a light enough pull for a two year old's finger will not work the action. But... If the gun is cocked it will fire easily. So...
Was mom carrying a cocked pistol with a round in the chamber in her purse? If so she caused the accident which killed her. I hope the child is not completely shattered by the event.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Regardless of what style handgun or what condition it was in she caused the accident by not keeping control of her weapon. purse is a real bad place for CCW because a purse is something you set down and easily lose control of. Fanny pack is the way to go for a woman. Keeping anything cocked and locked with kids in the house is a super bad idea.
How about the georgia police chief who just accidently shot his wife....
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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California code:
See especially (c)(2) an (c)(3) and BTW how many reasonable men/women do y'all run into on the ST or elsewhere in going about your business.
(2) Except as provided in subdivision (c), a person commits the crime of "criminal storage of a firearm of the second degree" if he or she keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that are under his or her custody or control and he or she knows or reasonably should know that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm without the permission of the child's parent or legal guardian and the child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes injury, other than great bodily injury, to himself, herself, or any other person, or carries the firearm either to a public place or in violation of Section 417.
(c) Subdivision (b) shall not apply whenever any of the following occurs:
(1) The child obtains the firearm as a result of an illegal entry to any premises by any person.
(2) The firearm is kept in a locked container or in a location that a reasonable person would believe to be secure.
(3) The firearm is carried on the person or within such a close proximity thereto that the individual can readily retrieve and use the firearm as if carried on the person.
(4) The firearm is locked with a locking device that has rendered the firearm inoperable.
(5) The person is a peace officer or a member of the armed forces or National Guard and the child obtains the firearm during, or incidental to, the performance of the person's duties.
(6) The child obtains, or obtains and discharges, the firearm in a lawful act of self-defense or defense of another person, or persons.
(7) The person who keeps a loaded firearm on any premise that is under his or her custody or control has no reasonable expectation, based on objective facts and circumstances, that a child is likely to be present on the premises.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Not really a fluke. bad sh#t happens when you keep a loaded pistol in a purse. too much other crap in there (ever actually looked in one of those things? Wicked scary shit!) and they ocasionaly have an AD just looking for their makeup or keys etc. the fatal shot was a fluke but the AD in the purse was to be expected one way or annother........
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I was wondering about that... my 5 year old has barely enough finger strength for a 5-6 pound pull. So maybe she was cocked and "unlocked" with the safety off perhaps on some 1911 variant action? Inside a purse? Geez.... Glock is stock what... like a 6 pound pull?
Ditto the fanny pack holsters with kids/active stuff/hiking... Plenty of room, everyone just assumes I'm a geek or a fag, maybe both. And that's ok with me.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Have no idea what kind of piece it was? there are pleanty of glock style triggers out there> i shure as sh#t would not want a 2yr old playing with my glock. sh#t goes bang every time. just ask Plaxico Burris....
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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You are right Tradman. All my pistols go bang every time. How heavy is the trigger on your glock for that first double action shot? 6,7,8 lbs? Can a two year old pull it? As far as I can figure the gun had to be cocked with one in the chamber. The kid was reaching around in her purse, didn't even have a good angle to make the pull if it could have. I'd give her a Darwin Award but it's too late, she already reproduced. Let's hope the kid is smarter than she was.
It was a fluke.
I dunno. That is not my idea of a fluke. A fluke is when an engine falls off an airplane and lands on your car. Is a loaded gun with the hammer back in your purse a fluke? Is driving on the freeway with no brakes a fluke?
I'd love to hear how the gun could have been fired by the toddler if it wasn't cocked. It could have been cocked and she didn't even know it. Fiddling around with it earlier, left the hammer back, picked it up for her Walmart excursion. Bang.
edit: I think it had to be a revolver. The slide action on a semi-auto would almost certainly have ripped up the kids hand. And keep in mind the kid's hand is not big enough yet to get it's thumb around the grip.
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