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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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I've read all 500 posts in this thread, and figured it was about time a gym-climber weighed in...
Several times we've been told that people should "do the route and report back"
(or words to that effect). Yet I find it very ironic that in 500 posts we still haven't
heard from an FA-ist who has actually climbed the route. - from what I can tell.
Why knott?
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Thank you for your endlessly charming commentary, Bob. Your thoughtful points never fail to resonate with the discussion.
I'm a punk teenager who started climbing ~twenty months ago. Four of those months were in a gym, eight of those months were spent incapacitated by schoolwork or sprained ankles, and eight of those months have been outdoors doing trad with a bit of sport. I'm happy to admit I'm new to this.
I've never done anything with bolts + granite (chopped, drilled, etc.), but do have some experience with sandstone.
Even at the Red River Gorge, a champion area for gym climbers turned wannabe hardcore climbers, the majority of boltings tend to be on lead. This is a place rampant with ugly ethics: overchalked, bolted cracks, people bringing iPods hooked to radios to the crags, getting lowered through permanent anchors, etc. And most routes are easy to get to the top of, so bolting on rapell wouldn't be difficult. And yet, they don't tend to do it.
I guess I don't believe the "I did it for you, [something along the lines of you ungrateful little dick]" argument; I've never heard it used by someone who isn't completely delusional; I've often/always heard it used by people who are lying to themselves. Then again, I've also never heard it applied to rock climbing.
I don't agree with having a sense of entitlement to climb every rock out there. For one, I think we should leave rocks to future generations so they can open things up. For two, I understand wanting to climb it "Because it is there", but the famous person behind that quote couldn't descend Everest before he got up it.
There are routes where you have to descend to get to them (go down to get up), but Half Dome is obviously not an example of this.
I'm leaning toward the thought that this opens the door for people who just want to put up lines and want names in guidebooks and want recognition and fame but haven't put any time in to actually learn to respect the rock. I could rap-bolt a big wall, I'd think, without too much difficulty. Yeah, finding a line might be a pain in the ass, but if there's as much gold as there allegedly is on the South side of Half Dome, hell, why not?
(And the answer is, of course, out of respect for those who could open up a free line without my prior interference. They should be able to have the adventure first. If it goes free from above, and I merely want to climb it, why don't I rap it and place my own protection and then say I've climbed it, or toprope it from above?
It shouldn't be MY route just because I rapped down it before anyone else did. I didn't explore and really see what the rock was... I instead tried to conform it to my standards. But as the saying goes, you can't shorten the mile just so everyone can run it under four minutes.)
It doesn't matter to the people who just want to climb; they won't see the difference. It matters for that first ascent party that wants the adventure. If Sean, Doug, et al. wanted good climbs, there's plenty out there (of which they're well aware) that won't kill the joy of people who want to ascend in a pure way...
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Hardman... Doug's weighed in several times...
Ben fixed the lines and he weighed in. Ben has also told me Sean's working on getting an account so that he can weigh in (although forgive him, because the climbing weather in Yosemite is perfect this time of year).
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Systematically arguing for rhetoric and sophistry above wisdom certainly flourishes here.
Werner, I am a sophisticated and well educated middle school prinicpal but I don't have any idea what you're trying to say here. But, if this was intended as a jab at me, I'm coming up there and kicking your ass !!!!
Cracko
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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I wish people would respect the ethics of the place.
Hmmm, ever climb those chipped routes on the Cookie? Fer gawd sakes they're classic...
You can find the stories on ST about Bridwell rap bolting same cliff, bleeding 'roids thru his painter's pants...iirc
A ho is a ho....rock don't care. But u seem to. Course the irony is the thread starter and other parties got caught all powerdrillin on the Cap. And it wasn't "just replacement"...
call'em "smethics"
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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I actually also heard a rumor that Bridwell used to place pitons where he thought good handholds would be so that the route could go free eventually: can anyone confirm or deny that?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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don't go there, Dom....muahahahah...but while yer on the subject of pinning...heh
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Orion wrote
"I thought Yosemite had an ethic where that you climb from the ground up and place gear or bolts on lead, it's a traditional area. To do otherwise is against the grain of the area. Rap bolting exists in other places, go do it there and the community that you are trying to put up a route for who don't climb X routes will appreciate it."
You thought too soon. There are plenty of rap bolted routes in Yosemite, just smaller.
And some were put up by lycra wearing sport pansies like Ron Kauk who can barely climb 14b and has only been in Yosemite 3 decades. This is only a matter of scale were talking about, like it's OK to bang loose women but not Amish chicks.
Domingo wrote
"I don't agree with having a sense of entitlement to climb every rock out there. For one, I think we should leave rocks to future generations so they can open things up."
Actually there are plenty of people who could have just lead out the rest of the slab and created another death route. The fact is nobody is leaving rocks for future generations. Folk who want to climb rocks, climb em. Neither Robbins, nor Harding, nor Bridwell, nor anybody else was in the business of leaving rocks for future generations. They leave em because they're lazy, or not good enough, or busy with other rocks, or cause they were so busy climbing every line in sight that they didn't get around to places like Half Dome for the reasons Doug and Sean encountered.
Those future generations might wake up and find that if everyone climbed hard faces in the best possible style that there would be death routes everywhere and precious little for anyone to climb. (Because, for some reason, repeating the death routes of the past hasn't proved very popular, even among the finest of the newest, bold climbers) The "R" rated routes in the 5.9 league on the Apron barely get climbed.
I'd like to know what kind of climbs the people weighing in against this climb so heavily are spending their time on and where. How many are actually doing the life and death routes with any regularity?
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jim Erickson said it best in "On the Rocks"...most great climbs have been done by somewhat dubious means.
Every climbing area has its "Demons in the Closet" and Yosemite has it's fair share.
Karl...have you seen most Amish ladies??
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Well that's because every route on the Apron's a death route, R or otherwise.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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This thread is far from over......in fact, it's just getting started. First, this debate is taking place on a site where the average age is probably late forties. Is this truly representative of the greater "Climbing Community"??? Personally, I don't know cause I'm too damn old to have the energy to answer that question. I entered this "community" in the early seventies and was deeply influenced by the Robbins/Harding controversy. As a result, I never placed a pin for protection or an anchor until 1999 when I climbed my first El Cap route, Zodiac. I am well rooted in a style of minimal impact and firmly believe in the Trad ground up ethic. However, I have always had a place in my heart for Harding and his cavalier attitude towards climbing. Afterall, its a damn piece of rock!!! Sorta reminds of the ridiculous rules in the game of golf, i.e. you cannot move or improve your lie. Damit! who gives a sh#t if I move my ball an inch or "fluff" up my lie after discovering that my ball is lying in a pile of goose sh#t??
I respect those who strictly adhere to the rule, but for me it is just not a big deal. I guess the question is how do we find middle ground. I truly admire and respect Doug Robinson as a human being and therefore will give him the benefit of the doubt in an "ethics or style squabble". I think the real question, after 400 plus posts, is how do we find common ground, mutual respect, and move forward as a cohesive "community". Or, is that even possible ??
Respectfully,
Cracko
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Impaler
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Tar, you want to hear what the new guard thinks. Well, here it is. I highly respect the old school traditions of Yosemite Valley where I have learned to climb trad (it's my third season climbing in Yosemite) and think that ground up is definitely the way things should be done.
I read the article in R&I in January when it came out and was very impressed by it. It almost made me cry. Not only I was happy to learn about the history of all the proud lines on the south face (you don't really hear much about them anywhere for obvious reasons) but "Growing Up" instantly became something to aspire to. It made me want to become a better climber and get on it. Which I will do for sure in due course unless I die doing one of the "easier" museum climbs.
With that said I think the FA team did a stellar job creating a beautiful route that will get done. It will not change anything in the long run in terms of ethics or style - it was put up in the best reasonable style for that wall as addressed upthread. So, thanks Doug, Sean, and others involved! I know I'll enjoy climbing your route some time in the future.
By the way, I think this discussion is highly monopolized by the "old guard" who frequents this forum. I'm sure that lots of other people are happy that this route is now established that just don't post here. There is already enough routes in the valley that have been rusting away for dozens of years and don't look at all appealing. Every time I encounter manky museum climbs on the walls Yosemite I know that beautiful rock has been defaced for enjoyment by very few and I'm glad "Growing Up" didn't end up like that. I think that it's time to grow up and stop putting up museum routes. They are the ones that deface the rock and limit access of the future generations. History should be respected, but not necessarily repeated!
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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hmm is there a compressor in here somewhere?
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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Yo Domingo,
You live in El Portal right? Why dont you yell out your window and ask Sean a few questions about what went on up there on HD. See if he will give you a topo and you can post it up here. Who knows mabey he will take you on a tour of some of his other easy moss covered routes. Thanks Blair........
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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I'm actually out of El Portal for a bit, maybe a couple of months. Otherwise, I would ask him a few questions in person (at Sal's night... the only thing that ever happens in El Portal).
By the way, Karl, good point on the skeletons in the closet, but realistically, this is the most appropriate time for the peanut gallery to raise a fuss.
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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WHO IS SAL ?
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Gene
climber
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Why had the Growing Up route needed to be done NOW? I don't get it - my perspective is from YV history. With all due respect to the First Top Down party.
In 1962 Roper & Chouinard did the FA of the DNB with 100+ aid pins. Only three years later, Sacherer and Beck did the FFA.
Look at the Sea of Dreams: Bridwell placed 14 pin stacks rather than bust in a bolt. The 3 man team slept on it. The rurp belay - 5 rurps and a 1/4-incher. Bold. A bolt would have been easier.
After Robbins et al did the second ascent of the Nose, he opined the route may go in 5 days. Current time,please?
The Rostrum was once a Grade V aid route. It has since been free soloed before breakfast.
The 2nd ascent team of the East Face of the Column chopped, what? 22 of the 24 Harding bolts. Oh, shit! That's Astroman.
Wasn't it 12 years after the FA of the upper Spire that Wilts and Austin freed it?
Powell did the longest continuously difficult route on the 5.8 Arrowhead Arete.
My point is that the future is about a week or year away.
What the hell are my babies gonna look forward to if rap bolting "for the future" is condoned?
Gene
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Sal's Taco Wagon... the fastest colon cleanse you'll ever get.
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