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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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I think Jan has it pretty much right...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christians
Fundamentalist Christianity, also known as Christian fundamentalism or fundamentalist evangelicalism, is a movement that arose mainly within British and American Protestantism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries among conservative evangelical Christians, who, in a reaction to liberal theology, actively asserted that the following ideas were fundamental to the Christian faith: the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ. Some who hold these beliefs reject the label of "fundamentalism", seeing it as a pejorative term for historic Christian doctrine,[1] while to others it has become a banner of pride. Such Christians prefer to use the term fundamental as opposed to fundamentalist (e.g., Independent Fundamental Baptist, Independent Fundamental Baptist Association of Michigan, and Independent Fundamental Churches of America).[2]
see The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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No Jan, I wrote of your bogus claim:
Only at the beginning of the 20th century, when the term fundamentalist was coined, did a specific group of Protestants begin to maintain that every word was the inerrant word of God. This is a very modern and very American understanding. Something like 99% of the other Christians in the world regard it as a kind of heresy.
And now I write another:
The hostile accusations of atheists will have little or no impact on what happens.
Written with such certitude. Well, I'd take that bet. Time will tell. When that large demographic that currently assembles under the term atheist gets with the program and redefines itself-- under another name and language, under an alternative belief discipline model, we shall see the impact. And in this new era, I have a high level of confidence historians will see the "atheists" as a major factor in the mix.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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Dr. F-
I don't find labels very useful especially for multi cultural people like myself, but if Gobee's interpretation is correct, then I too am among the doomed.
I say this with a chuckle however, as I don't believe it for a second even. I spent my early childhood in Texas so I heard and rejected his interpretations many years ago.
I tuned out his kind of interpretations by about the age of 5. The turning point for me was being told that all the children in China were going to burn for eternity because they had never heard of Jesus. I knew already that could not be right.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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I don't find labels very useful especially for multi cultural people like myself.
Another sloppy statement. Reframe it: I don't find bad labels very useful... I don't find outdated labels very useful. I don't find vague labels or ill-defined labels very useful. Your name is a label. Climber is a label. Boy is a label. Every noun in the language is a "label."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"fundamental to the Christian faith: the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ."
Amen Brother!
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WBraun
climber
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"..... all the children in China were going to burn for eternity because they had never heard of Jesus."
Statements like that will surely create atheism.
No sane person will ever accept such a statement.
Even Jesus Christ himself would not accept .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Ed- C'mon, did you read the whole page for context. That wiki piece concerns the term, the language. The earlier context of the thread was written in regard to whether early and medieval Christians in the villages and on the farms were literalist or not. Jan is apparently under the impression Christians of these periods by and large didn't have a literal take of the scriptures, that a "literal take" is a modern, largely American invention! So, two different issues here.
Morever, she says I was speaking of the political leadership, governments, rulers and such. This is incorrect. I had in mind the context: the illiterate masses in the villages and on the farms.
See the analogy between "fundamentalist" and "acoustic" I made. This may clarify...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Time will tell. When that large demographic redefines itself-- under another name and language, under an alternative belief discipline model, we shall see the impact.
If you are referring to constructing a new religion like naturalism I would agree.
Be aware however, that in order for it to be more than just another interesting idea, you will have to become an institution and in due time will get bogged down with all the foibles of religious institutions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan, God is just and would never condemn anyone if they really never heard of Jesus! But when your to good for God and want nothing to do with Him, He'll give you what you want!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
Of course I was not speaking of the peasants in the farms and villages of Europe. It was the officials of the church who condemned and organized the torture and death of dissidents. The average illiterate peasant didn't even have a clue what the issues were. All they knew of the Bible was what the priests told them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Huh? I'm outta here. Good night, folks!
Lastly one more-
Be aware however, that in order for it to be more than just another interesting idea, you will have to become an institution and in due time will get bogged down with all the foibles of religious institutions.
More sloppiness. "with all the foibles of religious institutions" Hardly! It won't be bogged down with the biggest foible of all: ancient theological hueypoo... supernaturalist doctrine... straight from the bronze age... and as I said on another thread, that's the only reason (a) ol' time religions are an obstacle on the path of science education, (b) ol' time religions have our attention: for making truth-claims about how the world works and how life works.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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here is a quote from one of the essays in the link above...
http://www.xmission.com/~fidelis/volume4/chapter5/beach.php
Decadence of Darwinism
by Rev. Henry H. Beach,
Grand Junction, Colorado
(Copyright, 1912, by Henry H. Beach.)
This paper is not a discussion of variations lying within the boundaries of heredity; nor do we remember that the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures reveal anything on that subject; nor do we think that it can be rationally discussed until species and genus are defined.
[snip]
We venture to differentiate life and if we go too far are sure to be corrected:
1. Vegetable life is the sum of the forces which pervade the organism, causes it to grow and preserves it from decay.
2. Brute life is the sum of the forces which pervade the organism, causes it to grow, preserves it from decay, is conscious and thinks.
3. Human life is the sum of the forces which pervade the organism, causes it to grow, preserves it from decay, is conscious, thinks and is religious.
It is logical to assume, until disproved, that these three kinds of life touch each other, but never merge. They associate as intimately as air and light, but are as far from passing from plants to brutes and from brutes to men as from not-being to being. "By faith we understand the ages to be set in order by the saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of the things manifest" (Heb. 11:3).
He who would overthrow Biblical Christianity expects to take the initiative. He recognizes that there is always a Presumption in favor of an existing institution; and has always been swift to open the battle.
[snip]
The teaching of Darwinism, as an approved science, to the children and youth of the schools of the world is the most deplorable feature of the whole wretched propaganda. it would be difficult to fix the responsibility of it. Darwin himself hesitated. Virchow tried, nobly, to protect the primary schools of Germany. The burden of his lecture at Munich is throughout a caution against evading the distinction between the problematical and the proven; they are not on the same evidential level. "He would teach", he said, "evolution, if it were only proven; it is, as yet, in the hypothetical stage; the audience ought to be warned that the speculative is only the possible, not actual truth; that it belongs to the region of belief, and not to that of demonstration. As long as a problem continues in the speculative stage, it would be mischievous to teach it in our schools. We ought not to represent our conjecture as a certainty, nor our hypothesis as a doctrine." Haeckel, always rash, advocated it. As they struggled, somebody lighted the fire. It was like the burning of the temple at Jerusalem. Titus had issued an order to spare it, but a Roman soldier threw a blazing torch into a small window and the whole structure was in flames. It was like the revenge of the Pied Piper of Hamlin Town. It was "Rachel weeping for her children, and she would not be comforted, because they were not".
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
I'm willing to bet that naturalism too would develop heresies and sex and money scandals, the same as institutional churches.
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jstan
climber
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Base104 interesting piece on neutrinos misses some of the current work on the problem.
By tomorrow Ed should be back from the O/W's and he will bring us up to date on flavor oscillation.
A short excerpt from science daily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050309145713.htm
2005
"Neutrinos come in three "flavors:" electron, muon and tau. Each is related to a charged particle, which gives the corresponding neutrino its name. Neutrinos are extremely difficult to detect because they rarely interact with anything. Though they can easily pass through a planet, solid walls and even a human hand, they rarely leave a trace of their existence.
"The probability of a neutrino interacting with anything is very small," said LLNL's Peter Barnes, who along with Livermore's Doug Wright and Ed Hartouni, is working on the MINOS experiment. "If you want to detect any neutrinos, you need something big."
Barnes, Wright and Hartouni are hoping that something big is a 6,000-ton detector lying deep in the Soudan, Minn. mine. The neutrinos will be generated along the underground beam line at Fermi Lab, will pass through the near detector at Fermi, and will travel through the Earth to the detector in Minnesota. Neutrinos are more easily detected when they are generated at a high energy (such as those at Fermi Lab).
The MINOS scientists chose the distance to the far detector to maximize the oscillation probability, which gives them the best opportunity to directly study the neutrino "flavor change."
Fusion in the sun results in electron neutrinos and scientists have predicted that if they can measure the electron neutrinos coming from the sun, they can measure the core of the sun. However, early experiments showed that less than half the expected neutrinos were observed on Earth. The idea that the missing electron neutrinos may have transformed into another type or "flavor" came alive."
End of excerpt
I recall seeing reports that flavor oscillation had been seen and that this now transforms the problem into one of theoretically explaining the mass of the neutrino. That would mean a change to the "Standard Model".
But Ed is the one we need to hear from.
Base104's other report is rather more complete. It does, however, omit recent reports that Pat Robertson has been in contact with intergalactic aliens and has told them the earth will be ready for them by 2013.
Edit:
I am going to display my stupidity for all to see now. I simply put two things together.
1. A recent report from the SK collaboration suggests only two flavors are involved in the mixing.
2. If LLNL considers the distance from San Francisco to Minnesota about right to observe the mixing, the rate of transition must be pretty high.
If it is that high by the time the sun's neutrinos reach us the two flavors must be entirely randomized.
QED. We lose half the neutrino flux if we can see only one flavor.
And Base, I have noticed physicists tend to have either little hair or disordered hair. The occupation is pretty hard on the hair. It also leads one to have a permanent puzzled expression.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Regarding Noah's Ark and the creationists.
First I laughed and then I cried. I'm beyond pulling my hair out!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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So, what about all the food for the critters on the ark? If their living quarters took up only half the volume, you still need to fit a lot of other stuff in the other half. And if they had a pair of creationist/fundamentalists on board, they'd need to be kept in a cell with thick soundproofing. 40 days and nights of their ranting would be enough to make even Noah pull the plug.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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How did Noah get two of each of the 8500 bird species?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The Sun's neutrino image as observed by the Super-Kamiokande detector:
The work on neutrino oscillations by Super-K collaborator Masatoshi Koshiba won him the 2002 Nobel Prize in Physics along with Ray Davis (both for neutrinos) and Ricardo Giacconi for his work in astrophysics.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It was nice of Noah to save all the viral and bacterial pathogens while he was at it.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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"Any way you look at it, Christianity is in trouble unless it makes major changes. It will either change or fall from its own internal contradictions. The hostile accusations of atheists will have little or no impact on what happens."
Good posts,all, Jan! Popular culture is lacking knowledge (of the context) of Protestant emphasis on scriptural authority and the rise of Christian fundementalism in the 20th century.
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