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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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So says jaybro "god" is a construct, a creation of human minds.
Suppose I go into a dark room and say to the person inside, “The sun has risen. Come out!” The person in darkness may say, “Where is the proof that there is light? First prove it to me; then I will come out.” I may plead with him, “Please, please, just come out and see.” But if he does not come out to see, he remains ignorant, waiting for proof.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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But if he does not come out to see, he remains ignorant, waiting for proof.
Quite so.
However, as an analogy applicable to this discussion it makes more sense to end it this way: If he does come out, and finds that it is dark, he will say "You say the sun is shining whether the sun is shining or not." To which you reply "But I believe the sun is shining, therefore the sun is shining."
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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When the sun rises, it's not hard to prove it. Just take a photo, measure the light readings, whatever. It's really not hard.
However, just saying "I believe it has risen" is not enough to prove to a skeptical mind that it has risen.
What if I say "I believe that your religion is bunk". Would just me saying that be enough to prove it to you? I sure hope not! But that's exactly what you're saying, only in reverse.
GO
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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So, you can show us god? Werner? Do tell.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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Suppose if you go to a professor and if you say, "Oh, if you are a professor, can you make me immediately M.A.?" and if he says, "Yes, why not?" then are you not a fool?
He is also fool.
And you can see God immediately without being trained, without undergoing training?
No. It is not possible.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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Dr F wouldn't recognize God if he stood right front of him.
You're just pissing into the wind .....
and your intelligence has been taken away.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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Dr. F, friend, you have forgotten so quickly that I have said quite a few times that I do talk to God.....it's easy, and he really listens. lynnie
Edit: WBraun, Dr. F would recognize God if he stood in front of Dr. F....anyone would really. He's hard to miss. :D
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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donini, are you saying that people in other countries all pretty much are conditioned to think the same, thus no need for debate ? jess wonderin' :}
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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Lynne, I think what he's saying is that the debate only occurs in your country because it (the US) is halfway between "cutting edge" and "medieval." In a medieval country, the debate wouldn't take place because almost everybody is conditioned (i.e. religious), so no need to debate anything. In a cutting edge country, most people aren't religious, so again, no need for debate.
Correct me if I'm wrong Jim.
Edit: and regarding your other recent post, you're quite right that Dr. F appears to have forgotten that you talk to god. Those of us on the questioning side are quite willing to accept that you talk to god/Jesus, what we have trouble with is trying to picture anyone on the other end of that conversation.
That's one of the reasons why, for the most part, this thread has been a good one. Those who, like me, are confused by what appears to be an unfounded belief in supernatural beings can ask politely for some kind of explanation or proof, while those who believe can do their best (politely) to bring the unbelievers into the light.
Dr. F, however, sometimes forgets the "polite" part.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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"Not one human can say they talk to God, yet they say the bible is the word of God"
Let's talk a little bit about what it means that "all Scripture or every Scripture is inspired by God." Just what is inherent in that thought? Let me see if I can't take you to a couple of Scriptures to maybe enrich that and then launch into some other things that are on my heart to share with you.
Turn in your Bible to Hebrews chapter 1 and let's look at the first and the first part of the second verse. Hebrews chapter 1, it begins like this, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers by the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son." Now that's the statement I want you to focus on. I don't intend to exhaust all of the ramifications of that statement, but in its simplicity it is abundantly clear and deeply profound. It's giving us the essence of revelation. Mark that word, revelation in its simple sense means to reveal...to reveal, to make something known that prior was not known, to make something understood that was not understood, to disclose truth never before known. God has revealed Himself. And here you have a statement with regard to revelation. God spoke long ago and God has spoken in these last days.
The writer of Hebrews is in effect saying God spoke on two occasions. He spoke once long ago, He speaks in these last days by His Son. Now I believe that we are fair in assessing the fact that he has in mind here Old Testament revelation and New Testament revelation. God spoke long ago to the Jewish fathers. Those were the Old Testament prophets, those who received God's Word long ago under the old covenant. He spoke to those fathers by means of the prophets in many portions, polumeros, many books, many sections. And you know that, there is the Pentateuch and there are the prophetic books and the historical books and there are the books of poetry. And in many many portions and in many books, God spoke. He spoke to the Jewish fathers. He spoke by means of the prophets.
He also spoke, it says, in many ways, polutropos. That means through vision and prophecy and parable and type and symbol and ceremony and theophany and sometimes audible voice. And He even wrote with His finger on stone. There were many ways in which God spoke many things, collected in many texts, put into many books and He spoke to those of old by means of the prophets. That is a statement with reference to the fact that the Old Testament is God speaking.
Now let me make it as clear as I can to you. The Old Testament is not a collection of the wisdom of ancient men. The Old Testament is not a collection of the best of religious thinking. The Old Testament is not a collection of the good musings of godly people. The Old Testament is the word of God. It's not the thinking of any men, good men, godly men or ancient men in and of themselves. It is the word of God. And the writer of Hebrews says God spoke...God spoke. The Old Testament was God speaking to the fathers by means of the prophets. In these last days since the coming of Christ, He has spoken again. And He has spoken in the Son. The gospels record God speaking through His Son‑‑Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The book of Acts, God speaking through the extension of the proclamation of the message of His son. The epistles, God speaking through the deep and profound understanding of the meaning of the life and ministry of the Son. And even Revelation, the consummation when the Son comes back in glory, the consummation of God's communication to this world.
So, the Old Testament is God speaking and revealing Himself. The New Testament is God speaking and revealing His Son. The Old Testament is God's self revelation and that is the theme of the Old Testament. From Genesis to the very end of the Old Testament, to Malachi, and all in between, the main character is God. It is the revelation of God, who He is, what are His attributes, what are His attitudes, how does He react to every possible given human situation, what is He like, what does He do, that's the Old Testament. It is the revelation of God. It is not the story of man. It is not the story of Israel. Those stories are there but it is the revelation of God and we see God revealed through man, through history, through Israel, through all that happens. God's attributes are sometimes listed very clearly as in the Psalms. On the other hand, sometimes we see His attributes very clearly and He's not even mentioned, such as in the book of Esther where no mention of God is made and yet He is the dominant force and dominant character throughout the entire book.
The Old Testament is the revelation of God to show man what God is like, who God is, what God tolerates and does not tolerate, how God desires holiness and punishes sin. The New Testament is God revealed by His Son in the life of His Son, in the message of His Son, in the understanding of the work of His Son and in the culmination and the coming of His Son to establish His eternal Kingdom. But in either case, Old Testament, New Testament, God spoke. And what we have is indeed the word of God. This is not the word of man.
The New Testament writers wrote down the Word of God. Jesus promised, "I will bring all things to your remembrance. I will teach you all things. I will lead you into all truth. I will show you things to come." And in so promising gave those Apostles and along with them the other writers of the New Testament the promise of divine inspiration, that they like the Old Testament prophets would write the Word of God.
And so, what we have in our hands, beloved, is not the word of man, it's not the word of religious men, it's not the word of wise and godly men, it is the word of God...the word of God. So Hebrews 1:1 and 2 talks about revelation, the revealing of God.
Here's the whole thing;
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/55-17
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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Gobee, we started walking upright most likely "because" it reduced the surface area of our pathetic hides' exposure to harsh equatorial sunlight, and it enabled us to run, and have our hands free to carry things. Those were all adaptations that led to greater survival rates in the habitats into which we moved, out of the forests and onto the savannah.
That's one fairly widely accepted theory, anyway. Kinda makes sense, eh?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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Craig, yeah, God......:D
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
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Ghost, do I know you ? Have I ever met you? I appreciate your imput on this Thread very much. (These avatar names along with a persons real name is sometimes a bit much for me to remember.)
Anyway, I think you may be correct about Mr. donini's comments. But I wonder how healthy it is to lean to much in either direction. Would not diversity of ideas and thought be a good growth medium for future mental, physical and scientific exploration? Thus a cross section of thought would indeed be not only healthy but beneficial.
Dr. F is is not impolite, just Dr. F
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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Dr. F, God did not evolve. All else may have, but not He. :D
Dr. F, I think there are documents like the Red Sea Scrolls that predate jesus. The whole bible was not written after jesus died.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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It is easy to see God.
Step 1. go to the top of El Cap
Step 2. tie into one end of your rope
Step 3. tie the other end to a solid anchor
Step 4. jump
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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"It just proves there is no God, since he would have had to evolve as well, and would have started as a big bang, and evolved completely ahead of us 4 billion in the future, and then apply some of what he learned during his evolution to us now,"
God always was, is, and will be! I can't get my head around that? But something had to be there before the big bang to make it go bang, GOD!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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Ghost, do I know you ? Have I ever met you?
No. Although I must say you seem to be on fairly intimate terms with the other two members of my trinity.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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I like you too Dr. F,,,,,,Quite a few people here on ST know me as well as some climbers from bitd. I doubt they all think I'm crazy.
Do you really think this world soley consists of what you see and only what you see? Think about it. Then ask Ed Hartouni about all the incredible things that exist that are not seen with the naked eye.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Seen with the naked eye, however, are the atrocities, the racism, and the narrow minded thinking of so many of god's followers- I wish my keyboard had a smaller case "g."
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