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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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I seldom get very worked up about poli-blogs on Supertopo but, Scabang if I ever meet you I am going to kick you in the face.
It's people like you, preaching hate and using extemist hyperbole ("Nazis") that are the cause of our inability to be effective in the Palestinian crisis.. Hopefully the rest of us can keep the conversation on an intellectual level.
p.s. how much warning do you think suicide bombers give their targets? (hint: less than 10 minutes) How dissuading would it be to Hamas if one of their military targets had thirty Israeli kids standing on the roof at the time of attack?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"The American people are going to wake up soon and tell Israel to pay her own bills"
that would be ironic
"conquer her own territories"
and which conquests do mean? the golan heights, which were captured in a defensive war? well, according to the un, lands captured in a defensive war can be controlled as long as a threat exists...perhaps you want to assert that israel faces no threats from anyone in the region? let's see, israel pulled out of lebanon, the west bank, and gaza and what did they get in return? attacks from hezbollah in lebanon, attacks from hamas in gaza, and a tenuous peace from fatah in the west bank...yes, logically, israel should give up strategic defensive ground in golan, too
"and subdue her own underclass."
and by "subdue" do you mean giving arab/muslim citizens full rights of citizenship, including the rights to live where they want, receive a free education, attend university, work, raise a family, vote, serve in parliament, and publicly criticize the government?
moral clarity?
let's see...one side warns their enemy of attacks, allowing their enemy to minimize casualties while the other side tries to maximize casualties by herding civilians (including women, children, elderly) to the locations of forewarned attacks... clearly one side is MORALLY SUPERIOR to the other, doug, but i'll only give you three guesses
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shutupandclimb
climber
So. Cal..............d00d
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I don't know about all the political in and outs, but I will say that if someone is raining down rockets on my innocent loved ones, I will do all in my power to stop the terrorism including KILLING all those that stand in the way or support the terrorists. We all have a right to protect ourselves, why shouldn't Israel?
All a measured response would do is encourage more criminal behavior and not hold those responsible fully accountable.
The object is to place pressure on Hamas (spelling?) from within as well as without. They were established as a military organization whose stance is that Jew's don't have a right to exist. F%&K Hamas. They are getting what their stupid asses deserve.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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What a bunch or retards.
Last time I checked, shooting rockets into a country was an act of war.
YOu really think a country should not respond to this with force? ESPECIALLY when dealing with suicidal maniacs?
And about the warnings being flawed-- HAHA! Since when does any ohter counytry give arning that they are about to attack an military target?
Seesm that that would give the enemy time to move out the stuff they cared about, huh?
But seen Hamas does not care about anything but destroying Israel. That's the rub.
Hell Hamas killed a lot of Palestinians while they were taking over gaza, taking out all their political rivals permanently.
That's really pathetic. I bet a lot of Palestinians would love to see Hamas gone and let Fatah run things.
BTW, when people are so bent on being idiots that they stay in a spot the know is about to be attacked, whose fault is it when they get killed?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Bookworm if you could substantiate (Israeli propaganda need not apply) any of your outrageous and oft repeated assertions then you would almost be worth listening to. As it is you sound like a bubble in a bathtub.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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It seems obvious that those of you who have absolute clarity about the inviolable moral righteousness regarding Israel's innocence and Hamas's guilt have either skipped or chosen to ignore a great deal of information presented on this thread,
Like the dandy dilema of the reality that Hamas was created and funded by Israel. The thinking was they would be a popular counter force to Arafat's Fatah party, Fatah was so hated by Israel that they had to be brought down. Now they are being presented as "moderate".
And what you also ignore is the reason Hamas may be fighting. Most of you in their shoes would be every bit as blood thirsty.
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shutupandclimb
climber
So. Cal..............d00d
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I'm with dirtineye.
Think about what you guys are saying. What if a rocket landed on your house, or your mom's, or neighbors? Don't be pathetic dimwits.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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You are judging based solely on hearing one endlessly repeated narrative.
Learn more.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Think about what you guys are saying. What if a rocket landed on your house, or your mom's, or neighbors? Don't be pathetic dimwits."
Gosh, when I think about it that way, Nuke em all to death!!!
On the other hand, you just could have easily wrote
"What if you family had been pushed from their lands by some immigrants and squeezed into refugee camps, subjected to searches, roadblocks and air attacks? Suppose an Israeli sniper killed your son in your olive field?"
If we put ourselves into the emotional shoes of either side, we're on their side! Thing is, we've been enabled to see Muslims as so "Bloodthirsty and crazed by anger" that we can't be in their shoes.
I bet if I was standing with boots on your fingers, you would start to look frantic and violent.
And the devil is in the details.
Peace
Karl
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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Bertrand - i'm in - come on down to the Yosemite Lodge food court. I'm there 5x a week and would welcome a kick in the face. Oh, btw, i received an e-mail from an old acquaintance who happens to reside in Holon (just south of Tel Aviv). It was one of those Goebbels propaganda numbers that (in a nutshell) went something along the lines that an Israeli kid has only 15 seconds to respond to a rocket attack. Shame! I ask you, as#@&%e, how much warning does a Palestinian kid get when the F-15's, F-16's & Apaches drop their "loads (sic)?
Oh, by the way you won't miss me- alway's dressed in my blue shirt & black pants uniform and the only one with a bushy beard. You're welcome.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Say what you like about being bloodthirsty and crazed by anger, at least it's an ethos.
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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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Karl, the premise isn't that Palestinians lack a legitmate complaint against Israel. It's that Israel, like every sovereign country, has a right to defend itself and the right to crush a group of people who are immovably devoted to Israel's demise.
Whether or not Israel's occupation of the territory has been justified, the past 60 years cannot be undone, and no olive branches now will reverse the jihadists' objective of Israel's destruction.
Let's think of it this way. Termites are hell-bent on eating your house. And, I can understand their imperative. Like termites consuming your house, Hamas activists have proven that they cannot tolerate peace until Israel is annihilated. And Israel has to stop them, (I don't enjoy it, but I will do what it takes to protect my house from termites). Should the Knesset pronounce themselves guilty of the crimes alleged by Palestinian extremists and open the doors to Hamas's judgement? "..Gee guys, you're right, we took your land...go ahead and perpetually shoot rockets at us with no end in sight"
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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"John Ging, the director of the UN Relief and Works
Agency in Gaza said: "Two weeks ago, for the first time in 60 years,
we ran out of food."
This was all during a supposed "cease fire" which meant Hamas was not
attacking Israel at all, and Israel was not committing daily bombing
massacres against the people of Gaza. But the slow massacre of siege,
border closing, lack of fuel and electricity and bread… that was all
part of this "cease fire."
So Olmert's statement that "[t]he quiet we offered was answered with
mayhem. Our desire for calm was answered with terror," is almost
laughable. If it weren't for 271 dead and 900 injured. If it weren't
for the Bush administration's statement that the people in Gaza are
"nothing but thugs" and that Hamas is to blame for Israel's largest
massacre since 1967
Mourid Barghouti, in his 2003 book I Saw Ramallah,
"It is easy to blur the truth with a simple linguistic trick: start
your story from 'Secondly.' Yes, this is what Rabin did. He simply
neglected to speak of what happened first. Start your story with
"Secondly," and the world will be turned upside-down. Start your story
with "Secondly," and the arrows of the Red Indians are the original
criminals and the guns of the white men are entirely the victim. It is
enough to start with "Secondly," for the anger of the black man
against the white to be barbarous. Start with "Secondly," and Gandhi
becomes responsible for the tragedies of the British. You only need to
start your story with "Secondly," and the burned Vietnamese will have
wounded the humanity of the napalm, and Victor Jara's songs will be
the shameful thing and not Pinochet's bullets, which killed so many
thousands in the Santiago stadium. It is enough to start the story
with "Secondly," for my grandmother, Umm 'Ata, to become the criminal
and Ariel Sharon her victim. ...
The houses built on top of ours gallantly declare their willingness to
understand our odd predilection toward living in camps scattered in
the Diaspora of gods and flies, as though we had begged them to throw
us out of our homes and to send their bulldozers to destroy them in
front of our very eyes. Their generous guns in Deir Yassin forgive us
the fact that they piled our bodies high at the sunset hour there one
day. Their fighter jets forgive the graves of our martyrs in Beirut.
Their soldiers forgive the tendency of our teenagers' bones to break.
Israel the victim polishes its hot, red knife with the sheen of
forgiveness."
Nazis, perhaps not.... however, please be aware that in 1933 Zionists leaders bent on the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine and the Third Reich were in fact business partners on a grand scale. Ever wonder how so many German brands ended up in Israel?
http://www.transferagreement.com/transfer/html/synopsis.php
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shutupandclimb
climber
So. Cal..............d00d
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It was the DECISION of Hamas to locate the centers of military ops. Among the civilian population in the hopes the civilians would act as a human shield against their illegal acts of war and terror against Israel. Hopefully Hamas will lose popular support in Gaza once the average citizen realizes they are being used as unwitting hostages by Hamas.
Think about it Coz. you really aren't that simple are you?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There are 1.4 million people living in Gaza, an area of 360 square kilometres. A very crowded place. It might be difficult to place any government institution there, good or bad, in a location where it wasn't near to or with civilian homes and businesses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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"my question Dirt in the eye, is what do you say to a little girl right before you blow her up? Tell me how you explain to her why she needs to die."
Well first, I tell her parents they are stupid to stay in a place they KNOW is going to be attacked, which is just how Hamas wants it, if you read anything at all about this in the papers.
"Hamas killed 4 people with their rockets 4. Israel has now killed 300, and wounded 3000."
Well gee, I guess lauchind butt loads of crappy rockets against a country that will wseriously kick your ass for it is a really bad idea, huh?
"Why not use special forces to take out Hamas, why blast the sh#t out of kids. Stop your rant and answer my questions, please."
Ahh f*#k you, it's not a rant, I repeat a lot of what experts are saying, from the NY times and various other sources.
As for the special forces, I guess you want Israelis to die when they don't have to, sort of like hamas sacrificing their citizens to gain sympathy from bleeding heart morons huh?
"No one saying Hamas is correct only the response is a little too much and will achieve nothing but more hatred and blood. "
Oh yeah, saying enough is enough and taking severe action against people who are trying to exterminate your people for a long time now and vow to never stop is bad I guess. You are an idiot.
Here's the deal: if you use deadly force, you have to deal with the consequences. It's not like Hamas can't stop the attacks at any time. They CHOOSE to cause problems. They CHOOSE to continue after being warned.
Those morons get what they deserve, and shame on anyone who forces innocents to stand in the path of the destruction. THAT'S truly disgusting, but that does not bother you hamas lovers at all.
Israel is NOT the one making those kids into cannon fodder, it's f*#king Hamas, can't you see that? DAMN IT go buy a clue.
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WBraun
climber
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Hahahaha
The Dirt is BACK!, in fine form ......
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Last night I had pulled 2 photos from that page, and posted on the other "ground assault" thread.
I can't see how people would view those photos and continue to say "hey - sh#t happens."
So I'll post just those two again.
I guess the US made "shock and awe" an acceptable strategy.
I know this analogies aren't easy to make, especially in situations as complicated as this one. But imagine this on a scale we might actually be able to comprehend(I don't think that any of us who haven't lived through a war zone can possibly imagine what it is really like).
Let's imagine the Hamas soldiers are like drug dealers in an inner city. They live in buildings with their families, surrounded by neighbors who may not even be aware they exist. Neighbors who don't HAVE the option to pick up and move just because there are people who bring high risk of violence to the building.
So, the police decide they want to clean up the inner city and they're going to irradicate these drug dealers.
Is it acceptable for them to bulldoze the entire neighborhood in pursuit of that goal? Is it acceptable for them to go to a building where a know dealer lives and blow it up, knowing they will kill children and innocent neighbors in the action? Is it acceptable to go into the apartment of a known dealer and shoot their children because they were in the room before the targeted person?
I know it is not a good analogy, to say Hamas like drug dealer. Please don't focus on that aspect, but the force applied when an authority feels they aren't getting what they want.
Whether one believes Palestinians, or Hamas, or cave-dwelling jihadists who clapped and wooped it up on camera when hearing about 9/11 attacks are "guilty," no one - NO ONE - deserves to suffer and die in the way those photos show.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Happygrrrl, your sweet spirit always comes through loud and clear.
You got something against drugs? (kidding)
I am hard pressed to observe anybody posting on this forum attempting to justify the violent aggressions and provocations of Hamas. There is a distinction between justification of violence, as opposed to comprehending its cause.
However I consistently observe the stubborn and ignorant view that sees all Palestinians as Hamas. I consistently see a refusal to recognize the deplorable living conditions imposed by the blocade, conditions that clearly provoke extremism.
However I think it is safe to say that for the entire Islamic world, US and British complicity in the Zionist movement demands a just resolution. This was an act of brutal displacement.
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