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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^^Nice one John:)
Lorenzo said;
The bible says it's OK to sell your daughter into slavery.
The bible as official word of God does actually prescribe stoning for adultery. Jesus challenges that prescription, not by condemning the scripture, but by questioning the Pharisees.
jus so i can better understand where your comin from.
Do you understand the difference between the New, and the Old testaments?
Do you know the difference between a Jew and a Christian?
And why do you imagine Jesus questioned the Pharisees instead of say, just laying down a new revised law?
Also is it of your opinion that if the Bible say's it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery, that this practice is ok to a christian?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"a whole lot of bigoted nonsense" lol
So criticism of the iron-age superstitions of Abrahamic religion whether C or I is bigotry? bigoted nonsense?
A lot of readers see beyond the rhetoric.
Why don't you review fundamentalism and fundamentalist. Here, I'll help you out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism
Are you suggesting the Muslim world isn't any more fundamentalist than the Christian world? Are you suggesting some input of Muslims into a culture wouldn't have an influence - indeed a religious fundamentalist influence - on that culture? On its government, its policies, its laws, its communities, its public schooling?
There's a great deal more to science and science education than ability to make a nuclear bomb for chrisakes.
Perhaps if you had 20 plus years of science education as a naturalist you'd have a more compelling reason to see through the nonsense of the truth-claims of the the Abrahamic religions.
Beliefs matter. Beliefs are not inconsequential. Of course this includes the iron-aged beliefs of Christianity and Islam, Islam and Christianity. What is a shame is that though this is the 21st century more people don't get this cognitively and attitudinally and more people don't raise this issue. But now that we've entered the social media age maybe this will change. In fact maybe that's what we are all witness to and participating in currently. We can only hope.
EXTRA CREDIT Just what percentage of the Islamic world would you guess (1) supports evolutionary "theory." 5%, 20%, 50%?
Call me an "alarmist" and biased but in my book anything less than 50% in this age is a problem particularly if they're making law and policy in my community.
Unf, I gotta go now.
PS... Look at the bright side though, appears you have Blu on your side.
PS2... There's a difference between (a) science and (b) science as we know it. I wrote the latter. Watch the rhetoric, sloppy writing, etc.
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philo
climber
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Soldier Expresses His True Feelings In This Open Letter To All Muslims
By Kristie on December 7, 2015
Categories: Media, Religion, War
Optimized by Komoona
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It seems that Muslims are in the middle of their own personal war in America. On one hand, there is fear that all Muslims are to be scrutinized, as they could be Islamic extremists. On the other hand, the majority of Muslims just want to be free to worship, work, and care for their families.
Photo used with permission from David Swan.
Photo used with permission from David Swan. Swan is fourth from the left.
So when U.S. Army soldier David Swan posted his own thoughts titled, “Dear Muslims,” it was quite the revelation and perspective that should cross all political boundaries. Both Democrats and Republicans can take something away from this soldier’s thoughts.
After reading his extremely honest thoughts regarding Muslims, I had to ask him why he wrote what he did. Swan responded by saying:
“I wrote it for a few reasons. There is so much divisive rhetoric being shouted on social and traditional media, that I feel like the “reasonable people” are just choosing to remain silent because they don’t even want to be a part of the conversation anymore. The problems of this world are much more complicated than oversimplified snarky memes and talking head pundits. I felt that most people find themselves in the “middle” of these issues and that voice needs to be heard more than ever.”
With that said, here is the post that everyone needs to read:
“Dear Muslims,
I am an American, a Christian, and a US Army Soldier. I’m white, I grew up in the South, and I love Jesus, as well as the life of freedom and prosperity that my country has enabled me to have. I have fought in Iraq and lost several really good friends there.
I don’t hate you. I don’t fear you. I don’t want you to leave this country. I want to know you, your heart, your struggles, and your joys. I want to have you over to my house for barbecues. I want our children to be friends and play in the back yard together. I want you to join my fantasy football league. I want to give you crap and make fun of you for not picking Marshawn Lynch in the first round of the draft when you had the opportunity. I want you to give me crap when it turns out that you were right, because Marshawn Lynch kind of sucks this year. I want share mutual respect with you.
We share a common enemy in the radical Islamist. They want to drive us apart and to fear each other. They want your children to grow up hating my children. They want you to believe our way of life is evil and that we must be punished for it. They produce a barrage of internet propaganda aimed at isolating your children from those not like them in an attempt to recruit them to do evil on their behalf. Every terrorist attack against innocent people in this world is an attack against peace and normalcy. It’s designed to stir a violent response from those attacked and create more hatred between “us and them.”
Sadly, it’s working. It is producing the full range of human fear responses toward Arab-looking people — from a subtle sense of suspicion and unease communicated with sideways glances at each other on the street, to full-scale Islamophobia and racism. I want to believe that we, as Christians, could follow the example of Christ and show love to you as well as your people suffering through this refugee crisis in Syria by opening our homes and communities to you. We are failing at this because of the fear and distrust our enemies are willfully creating. This growing divide between our cultures makes recruiting more disaffected Muslim youth even easier for them.
To anyone reading this letter…Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheist, or whatever. We simply cannot let them win. We can’t allow them to make us hate each other. Fear and hate are their most effective weapons and we must neutralize them in order to break the cycle. If you truly want peace, I challenge you to befriend someone “on the other side.” Let’s have a joint Church/Mosque cookout in a park where our kids can chase each other around and argue over who gets to be Elsa, Anna, Kristoff, and Prince Hans. We need to learn about each other’s lives and differences. I believe we will find that there aren’t as many differences as one might think. We all want to make a living, raise our families in a safe place, and live in peace.
Unfortunately, there are some wolves out there that will not stop killing sheep until they are put down. Please do not blame us for using our staff to protect the flock. Please know that when it comes to terrorism, I consider all peace loving people part of the flock, regardless of race, religion, or nationality. That includes you, of course. War is hell but as Edmund Burke said, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
If there happen to be any Muslims reading this that have already been radicalized, I feel sorry for you. You have bought into a lie. You have been promised a glory for your actions that does not exist. We take no joy in killing you, but we will do it because you have forced our hand. We will reduce the Islamic State to an impotent and ineffective shell of what it once was just as we have with Al Qaeda. The world will not know your names, but your families will undoubtedly mourn your loss. May God have mercy on your souls.
Respectfully,
DS”
Lastly, Swan told me this:
“The goals of our enemies are to divide us, spread fear and hate, and instigate global chaos. We, as individuals, can’t do much about geopolitics. But we can love each other and break down these walls our enemies are building between us. And maybe, just maybe, doing so may restore some faith between fellow humans and protect a few disenfranchised Muslims from buying into this radical ideology.”
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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^so well said.
Every time Trump opens his mouth is a win for Daesh.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Here's the Senate's Lead Liberal Democrat in action...
By Alexander Bolton - 12/07/15 09:16 PM EST
Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) is kicking up a storm with liberals in his caucus by pushing an amendment to the government funding bill that would help Caesars Entertainment Corporation, a Nevada-based gaming giant in danger of bankruptcy.
Reid is pushing to add a provision to the year-end omnibus that would help Caesars avoid bankruptcy by allowing it to restructure debt incurred by a subsidiary out of court, according to Senate and K Street sources. http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/262391-reid-rankles-dems-with-push-for-casino-rider-in-funding-bill
What a piece of sneaky bought out shet!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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^^Yeah cause it would be so good for Nevada if Caesars goes Bankrupt unnecessarily. Such a horrible thing to be able to restructure debt out of court at no cost to taxpayers...what an evil Senator Reid is.
Ok sarcasm off...Glad we have a professional doing his job on our side here in Nevada.
Are you sure you know what a Senators job is?
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WBraun
climber
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So .... the mob is going bankrupt?
hahaha ..... and the criminal Senator is in business with them
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dirtbag
climber
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Trump effectively points out the thinking and philosophy that led to Japanese internment camps in the US during WWII is alive as ever. There are millions of voters who's fears can be exploited by the right politician.
Many of Trump's supporters have openly compared these proposals favorably to what happened to the Japanese during WWII as necessities taken during wartime.
This country has always had a fascist streak, it just hadn't been displayed this openly for quite awhile.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 09:38am PT
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HFCS posted If suddenly all American Christians were replaced head for head with an equal number of world Muslims, Arab to Persian to Eastern - an interesting experiment to be sure - we'd have Sharia within the year and no science as we know it (let alone evolution) in our schooling systems.
Thank goodness religion has never been a barrier to scientific progress in this country! Or that Christians don't insist that law or education be made to reflect the Bible.
philo posted Western Illinois University has successfully predicted every single presidential election with 100 percent accuracy since 1975. They’ve completed their mock election for the 2016 presidential field and according to their calculations, the 45th President of The United States will be…
Bernie is a very powerful voice for his issues and a very authentic character in many ways, but his scope is far too narrow to be an effect President. Additionally, he clearly knows that his core message, the thing that makes liberals excited about him, has no chance of going anywhere without a massive groundswell of support that carries far beyond the actual election. Obama, a far more widely appealing candidate and a better overall communicator, got completely stymied by Congress. Without a total sea change that radically changes the makeup of the House, we shouldn't expect anything different.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Thank goodness religion has never been a barrier to scientific progress in this country! Or that Christians don't insist that law or education be made to reflect the Bible.
I don't understand. Isn't that MY point?
Maybe you don't know my position on Abrahamic religion?
Or maybe I am mis-reading?
Anyways thanks for the opportunity to make the point, or points, once again.
Thank goodness religion has never been a barrier to scientific progress in this country! Or that Christians don't insist that law or education be made to reflect the Bible. -hddj
If you think C culture with its level of fundamentalism is bad, outdated, retro, an obstacle to greater enlightenment, anti-science, anti-education, whatever, I culture with its level is/would be ten times more intense. That was the point. Everybody should get that. But obviously they don't.
Instead of one Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson claiming AIDS is God Jehovah's punishment, there could be 10. Instead of one Liberty University putting out fundamentalist lawyers to rep pro-life, there could be ten. That was the point.
C religion in the English speaking world has already endured much in the way of growing pains over the last few hundred years, moderated by countless nonreligious institutions and pressures, everything from science to democracy to rock n roll to Hollywood to bikinis. Islamic religion esp in the Arab ME has had no such oppo relatively speaking. It's yet to endure a couple hundred years of reformation and growing pains. Hence it's a lot more fundamentalist in net percentage.
To be clear, I'm all for Syrian immigration of refugees as long as they've been rigorously vetted (e.g. question: 'I am not Muslim, I am an infidel. Am I your enemy?') I've posted nothing suggesting otherwise. The entire development is a tragedy. But don't fool yourselves: Insofar as fundamentalist Muslims immigrate to US you should expect a commensurate Islamic fundamentalist influence in its communities including its public edu systems and you should expect less consensus and more dissention over basics. Is that what we want?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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S EXTRA CREDIT Just what percentage of the Islamic world would you guess (1) supports evolutionary "theory." 5%, 20%, 50%?
Not sure if you are for or against evolutionary theory,
But a poll has been done in the USA. Muslims are bracketed by Christians.
The greatest support for the concept appears among Athiests, Buddists, and Hindu.
The whole USA population stands at 48% , Muslims at 45%.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution
Since not all Americans are Christian, my guess, which you asked for, is that there isn't much difference between Christians and Muslims. What's your guess?
Throughout the World, It's not as incompatible as you imagine, and runs about the same gamut it does in Christian thought.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_evolution
A 2007 study of religious patterns found that only 8% of Egyptians, 11% of Malaysians, 14% of Pakistanis, 16% of Indonesians, and 22% of Turks agree that Darwin's theory is probably or most certainly true, and a 2006 survey reported that about 25% of Turkish adults agreed that human beings evolved from earlier animal species. In contrast, the 2007 study found that only 28% of Kazakhs thought that evolution is false.[21]
According to a more recent Pew study these numbers appear to increase slowly but steadily. For instance, a relatively large fraction of people accept human evolution in Kazakhstan (79%) and Lebanon (78% for college students), but relatively few in Afghanistan (26%), Iraq (27%), and Pakistan (30%), with most of the other Islamic countries somewhere in between.[24]
Kazakstan is 70% Muslim. The USA is 70.6% Christian.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Yes Lorenzo, I am a "science type" here and my background is full-on science including evolutionary "theory."
Good on Kazakhstan!
Hopefully it can serve as something of a role model then for its neighbors.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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HFCS- I was being sarcastic. Very, very sarcastic.
Chuck wants everyone to know that planes are not guns. Or that not planes are not guns. Or something.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 8, 2015 - 11:06am PT
Yes Lorenzo, I am a "science type" here and my background is full-on science including evolutionary "theory."
Good on Kazakhstan!
Hopefully it can serve as something of a role model then for its neighbors.
Well, if you are a science guy, you might rather hope that Kazakstan would be a role model for USA Christians, then.
Iwent to the Pew research center to view what I could of the actual polls and data, and they are available in PDF form if you wish to view them.
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/12/Evolution-12-30.pdf
Includes the same polling data for Christians in America. Chart on page 8.
It also polls Republicans/democrats/ independents.
The site http://www.pewresearchcenter.org/religion is a great site and includes an interactive that divides the USA regionally. There are marked differences. ( no surprise)
The 2013 data for Muslims around the word for basically the same questions on evolution , and for other Muslim attitudes is here:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf
Section on evolution and chart on page 132
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Lorenzo, there is a problem with your chart that documents what various faiths think, in believing evolution:
What happens when there is a disagreement with the doctrine, and what individuals poll? Where does the number go?
For example, with Catholics, the doctrine is that evolution is correct---that is official, as pronounced by two Popes. But apparently many "catholics" don't agree with the official doctrine. Are they Catholic? What do you put down as "what Catholics believe"???
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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HFCS,
Your bigotry against adherents of "Abrahamic Religions" was, indeed in my cross-hairs, so to speak. How many practicing Christians, Muslims or Jews do you know that have a Ph.D. in a scientific discipline? For that matter, how many practicing Christians, Muslims or Jews do you know? I ask because I question the sources of your conclusions about them and their practice of science.
For that matter, how does the practice of "science as we know it" differ from the practice of science? Doesn't your distinction require that the practice of "science as we know it" consist of something other than the practice of science? Put another way, your reply to my last comments requires that the "practice of science as we know it" be unscientific.
John
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Ken M:
Ae you referring to the Wikipedia chart? Or the ones in the pdf's I just posted? I think Wikipedia is based on the PDF's ( older versions)
I don't pretend the charts have all the answers, but as I read the charts in the pdf's, they compare two extremes of thought. Note the numbers don't add up to 100%
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Lorenzo, that's fair, and I'm not meaning to contradict your conclusions---really just pointing out that this is pretty complicated stuff, and it's not always easy to find a clean conclusion.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Agreed. Which is why I get a bit combative when people spout absolutes.
The poll on Christianity include a section on, if you believe a form of evolution, is it divinely inspired/guided?
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