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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 10, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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Observe;
Ridiculous mental gymnastics at work!
Rural electrification was a social movement.
Very slick! You twechewous twickstah.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 10, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
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Pretty bad behavior, but the Spanish inquisition went on for 350 years with an average body count of eight to twenty one per year depending on who's counting.
ISIS and Boko Haram have slaughtered more since the first of the year than the
Spanish did in 350.
How many people did Jesus command be beheaded?
Mohamed presided over the beheading of 300 prisoners in just one event.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 10, 2015 - 11:06pm PT
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How many people did Jesus command be beheaded?
Or, another way of looking at it: How many people do the current followers of Jesus find acceptable to be beheaded?
Well, our heartfelt ally, Saudi Arabia, the leaders of which kiss our leaders, beheaded more than 20 last month.
Didn't see any Jesus freaks raising any stink......
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Feb 11, 2015 - 04:53pm PT
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I'm waiting for christian leaders to denounce the UNC massacre.
Jerry Falwell and the moral majority would be a good start.
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Chugach
Trad climber
Vermont
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
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Every major social improvement in American history started in a church.
The Rural Electrification Project started in a church?
Let There be Light. Day 2 I believe.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Feb 11, 2015 - 06:00pm PT
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Feb 10, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
The Rural Electrification Project started in a church?
So did the Salem witch trials, the murder of Joseph Smith, the Mountain Meadows massacre, the Sand Creek massacre, and the Potowatome trail of death.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Feb 11, 2015 - 06:22pm PT
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Feb 10, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
Pretty bad behavior, but the Spanish inquisition went on for 350 years with an average body count of eight to twenty one per year depending on who's counting.
Haha.
Well if you were Muslim in Spain you might point out that despite the Christian monarchs promising freedom of religion in 1492 at the surrender of Granada, Spain demanded conversion in 1502 on pain of death or expulsion, and 20 years later expelled even the converts. There were a million and a half Muslims there in 1492.
In 1515 there was a Muslim revolt which resulted in 15,000 direct deaths in one year, and if you were caught reading the Quran or performing Wudu ( religious ablutions) you were executed without trial. Those figures don't appear anywhere.
Make no mistake. It was genocide. By 1615 there were NO Muslims in Spain. So your 350 year time span I'd total bulsh#t. The genocide happened in about 115 years.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 11, 2015 - 07:33pm PT
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The Muslims were invaders that enslaved Spain until repulsed during the Reconquesta.
Lots of the warfare was between rival feudal states with fluid alliances
just one example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Cid
Then there's the whole slavery thing
And so began the greatest slave-taking venture in history. Politically correct campus commissars would have us believe that the only men ever enslaved were black and the only slavers were white. Not quite. The first slave-labor plantations on an industrial scale were in not the Mississippi Delta but the Mesopotamian Delta, around Basra during the Arab “Golden Age.” For centuries, millions of blacks from Africa and brown-skinned captives from the subcontinent were put to work in conditions that led, in the late ninth century, to the greatest slave revolt known to historians, the 15-year Revolt of the Zanj (East African blacks), the scale of which eclipsed the better-known Spartacus uprising against Rome or the Haitian struggle for freedom. At its peak, perhaps a half-million slaves, impoverished Arabs and Bedouins, repeatedly defeated the sultan’s armies. At the climax of the uprising, Basra was obliterated amid a regional apocalypse.
Slaves thereafter were more strictly disciplined and dispersed, but the institution boomed throughout Islam’s realms. Compared to the mega-mall slave markets of Damascus and Baghdad, of Cairo, Tunis, and Bakhchisaray, and, later, of Timbuktu and Istanbul, the slave pens of Charleston and New Orleans were country stores.
As the Ottoman claw choked one third of Europe, the enslavement of Africans continued unabated, but the real prizes now had white skins (blonde females and pretty boys were especially prized). Each of the literally hundreds of Ottoman and Tartar invasions and slave-taking raids into the Balkans, Hungary, Romania, southern Poland, Ukraine, the Caucasus, and even Russia herded thousands and tens of thousands of prisoners southward in vast drives of human cattle. The Eurasian steppes and the Balkan mountain passes shone white with the bones of millions of captives who did not survive the journey.
Muslim pirates plagued the Mediterranean, raiding the lands not occupied by Muslims, to fill their slave markets and man the oars of their galleys — the latter a fate worse than that of plantation hands. Adventurous corsairs even raided coastal England and Ireland, kidnapping the populations of entire towns.
Apologists for Islam — and they are legion — claim that Muslim rule over conquered peoples was enlightened, that conquered Christians and Jews had only to pay the dhimmi tax and everything was fine. Tell that tale over the graves of the Balkan and Greek families forced to send their fittest, finest sons to the Sublime Porte of the sultan to be brought up as Muslims. The strongest young boys trained as janissaries, Ottoman shock troops, to make war on the frontiers against Christians and take more slaves. Others were trained for administrative duties. Indeed, some slaves rose high under both Arabs and Ottomans. But as the soldier-scholar Peter G. Tsouras reminded me, millions of males were castrated to suit the warped values of societies dysfunctional beyond Freud’s darkest dreams.
To be fair, the eunuchs who survived the procedure were valued as harem guards and for other positions of trust. A few became viziers. Nonetheless, one suspects that there was never an abundance of volunteers.
http://www.nationalreview.com/node/398230/print
Islam means submission. you are Dhimmi.
Submit now!
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Feb 11, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
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The politics in Spain were a lot more complicated than that. Often Christians and Muslims were allied together against other alliances of Chistians and Muslims.
Three famous instances of this were:
1)
The French under Charlemagne made a military incursion into Spain to aid Muslim princes who were fighting with the Christian Count of Barcelona. On the way back over the Pyrenes the rear guard of this army was attacked by Basque and Castilian Christians who were never real fond of armies going through their territories and a certain Count Hruodland was killed. Hruodland was Saxon and Frank.
There's a whole poem about it, except we know the guy as Roland and the poem says the Muslims did the attacking of the rear guard. Totally false.
2) El Cid ( Rodrigo Dias de Bivar ) the most famous hero who signed his name Rodderic, a Visigoth name, as often as not fought for Muslim Taifas against King Sancho and the Count of Barcelona, who was a general ass. He became the count of Valencia not by conquest, but because the Muslims thought he was the best chance they had to ward off Sancho.
And when he died ( not in Battle and the propping up of his body on his Horse Babieca to lead a charge is hogwash) his wife Ruled until Christians and moors under Sancho's brother drove her out of the City.)
3) It was during Charlemagnes time that the Banu Qasi, Arian Christians who converted to Islam and ruled Pamplona arose. ( Banu Qasi means 'sons of Cassius' , the Visigoth guy who started the dynasty)
They made alliances with both Christians and Muslims over the years, ( including Charlemagne) depending who was thretening their borders. Muslims all over the Penninsula made alliance with Christians and sealed them with marriages, so that the rest of the Muslim world was astonished to see tall blond blue eyed sheiks that resulted from the marriages. Queen Elizabeth of England Claims her descent from Mohammed from one of those marriages - look it up.
The idea that the Muslims came in and took over a peaceful Christian nation is also comical. The people they conquered were Visigoths who had taken over the country just a couple centuries earlier. They drove out the Vandals, who had gotten there a few decades before. ( they invaded North Africa to get away from the Visigoths in 429 and then Sicily, so invasions go both ways.) And both either drove out or killed the Alans and Suebi, who had gotten there about the same time.
All of these folks were Arian Christians , not Nicean (Catholic) Christians. They were, in fact considered just as much Heretics to Nicean Catholics as the Muslims . The Visigoths went to Spain when the Franks drove them out of Aquitane.
The Visigoths did convert to Catholicism, at least in name, a couple decades before the Muslims came in, but they were invaders themselves. They made the conversion because it made it easier to rule their subjects, who were already Catholic, and because the Pope threatened a Crusade against the heretical Arians. The conversion started in 633 and was officially complete( though not in fact) by 689 at the 12th council of Toledo, just in time for the Muslim invasion in 711, so 22 years of only nominal catholic rule. Many Goths never converted.
Some Catholics fought with the Muslims against the Visigoths at the battle of Guadalette which killed the small band of Gothic Princes who subjegated the country. Once the small ruling Visigoth elite were gone in the one battle, there was no ruling elites left.
It was a house of cards doomed to failure.
( most of the populace were decendants of invaders and settlers from Phonecia, Carthage, Greece, Rome, North Africa, Scandanavia, Wales, and probably a dozen other places. Many brought their own Gods. Mithraism from the Roman Armies was a prevalent as any religion.)
The lower classes found the Muslims ( the princes were largely from Yemen) were more tolerant of other religions " of the Book" than the Goths. The Jews did also, and for 700 years all three religions were on the peninsula and some of the greatest Christian, Muslim, and Jewish scholars all studied at the University of Córdoba -- Maimomedes, Avicenna, Averoes, and countless Christians who took what they learned back to Northern Europe and started the renaissance.
if it hadn't been for the Muslim invasion of Spain Northern Europeans would probably still be rooting up tubers and have grubs as the main protein in their diet. They sure as hell wouldn't know Algebra or any medicine.
And the reconquista really gained steam when the Muslims in Spain asked Christians for help against other Muslims. Turns out it was the foothold the Christians needed to play them off against each other.
And Ferdinand and Isabela were called 'los Reyes Catolicos' because they were intolerant of any other religions. Using the battle cry of Catholicism They unified spain as a fully Catholic country for the first time -ever. And there was genocide and the breaking of the promise of freedom of religion involved.
His ancestry was English and German, hers was also. They were both from the House of Transtamara- bastard Habsburgs and the Lancasters - a little Bourbon thrown in. Some of the people in that line could barely speak Any form Spanish.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Feb 11, 2015 - 11:21pm PT
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I don't think diplomacy or religion were the real driving force in The fifteenth or in the 21st centuries.
Xenophobic Christian America counts radically fundamentalist Islamic Saudi Arabia as one of its strongest allies while calling for crusade against the Muslim World and they call for jihad.
It's all BS. We only invade places with oil. Even Afganistan was to get an oil pipeline to Kazakstan.
Power is the name of the game and always has been. We just rewrite history to make the emotional reasons fit. No boots on the ground would go to war to make a fat cat richer. Has to be religion.
There are two attested accounts that the Muslim Abd dur Raman invaded Spain at the behest of Christian Count Wittija, who fled to Tangier when his land was taken by Visigoth King Rodderic, or that it was at the request of Count Julian of Cueta, who's wife and daughter were raped by the king.
Either way, it was for profit, not Prophet, that he went.
( and because he was running from the Umayyads)
I'm not sure if Julian was Visigoth or Vandal. But some etymologies say Al Andaluz, the Muslim name for Spain, comes from the word Vandal. It's where they came from when they invaded Africa.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 12, 2015 - 04:38am PT
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Religion, race, and a little nationalism are all merely marketing tools for oligarchs to steal your productivity and send your children to die for their own benefit. Sad...
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Feb 16, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
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They think Mark Foley ordered other republicans to do the hit?
Seems a tad premature to make that accusation.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 16, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 16, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
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More recently brought to you by the myrmidons of the death cult of the child molesting war lord.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Feb 16, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
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We've evolved an ability to form advantageous beliefs, you the same as me. Maybe they look a little different to us whether we're black or white, Arab or Merican, science educated and influenced or religious educated and influenced. Lots of different advantages we can get with our beliefs. Regardless, I think we all confuse the advantage of our beliefs with the truth of our beliefs, and think that their true measure is their truth. Praise Jesus! Thank you Christians.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Feb 16, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
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Where did ISIS pick up the Cal Trans jump suits...?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 16, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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"We've evolved an ability to form advantageous beliefs..." -rbord
Thank you for acknowledging evolution. Thank you for acknowledging evolution's role in the history of our species, also its role in the history of our beliefs.
"Praise Jesus! Thank you Christians." -rbord
No. There is no room for a God Jesus or for any Abrahamic supernaturalism (be it Islamic or Christian) in the so-called Evolutionary Epic.
If it's a mythical Jesus you speak of, as part of a wider inspiring narrative, say, then for clarity sake, you should say so. In the interest of consciousness-raising, for lack of a better term.
.....
"the myrmidons of the death cult..."
good one!
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