Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
|
Bob's batting 1000 and Huff n Puff Chuff keeps shooting Maggie's Drawers.
|
|
Sanskara
climber
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
|
Blanks he's shooting blanks..
I life spent shooting blanks it all makes sense now...
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
|
"Couchmaster: Not defending the man Bundy.
Rather the operation that is being conducted at Bundy for reasons that so many here are too fking blind to see and accept as real."
I'm with that Chief. I remember when the BLM didn't have a police arm, let alone the massive military style police force they seem to have now. They still don't need one, but every little bureaucrat wants their own police force these days, and they (sadly) get it. Your tax dollars at work. I don't see it is reason to support someone who is breaking the law. Why should Bundy be able to undercut honest hard working ranchers who are paying for range? I feel like I must be missing something here.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
|
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:32pm PT
|
I remember a time when men served their country, came home, and shut up about it.
I admire them a lot more than the look at me, read about me, see me, wave the flaggers.
|
|
Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
|
That cop spraying those kids actually received disability payments for pain & suffering resulting from that event.
Don't have time to find the link, we're headed to Glacier NP to watch the Blood Moon tonight. (stay away clouds)
Have fun arguing everyone.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
|
Militarization of "your" local P.D! Note the ex-military "Fritz" helmet on the cop with the spray.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
|
Brokedown, you're a rancher. Why should Bundy get to graze for free and undercut your price? If all will be revealed later - as Chief says, why are other ranchers supporting it now?
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
|
Such brave patriots, hiding behind the skirts of their women:
The Blaze, the conservative news site affiliated with Glenn Beck, flagged the comments made Monday by Richard Mack, identified as a former Arizona sheriff who had joined more than 1,000 other protesters alongside Cliven Bundy, who has been feuding with BLM over his use of federal land to graze his cattle.
“We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front,” Mack said in a Fox News clip pulled by The Blaze. “If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”
|
|
fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
|
I don't think it's so much this particular cow situation but the overall sense, to the conscious, that our Federal regime is completely out of control. IMO they are absolutely begging someone to start shooting. They are trying so hard to start WWIII overseas on multiple fronts. Perhaps they want to kick off a little internal rebellion.
They're broke. Flat out broke with astronomical debt. MOAR WAR. The only way to provide cover and blame for the economic situation.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
|
Couch-
That's a complex question for someone in ranching, especially for one who doesn't have a very good opinion of the BLM in the first place. But in the spirit of informing everyone here, especially those who think they know it all but don't.
I'll preface my comments with the statement that none of us here have all the facts, in spite of those who have formed their opinions based on the MSM news thinking otherwise.
The land in question was at one time "open range," which means anyone could use it who could "make Beneficial use thereof." There is also the issue of water rights out there, and water rights accrue to the first appropriator, again "make beneficial use thereof." View these rights similar to mining claims. The miners back in the Comstock Lode era could go out on public lands and stake mining claims for various minerals and take title in perpetuity by making certain improvements and working the claim for some set number of years. In those days this land was WORTHLESS, and only with the advent of the BLM have "grazing fees" been imposed. I suspect Mr. Bundy believes he has a claim to the grazing "in perpetuity" because his ancestors established their claim thereto.
These comments aside, any grazing fees levied on this sort of grazing land would be disproportionately high for value received. If Bundy wants to ranch this sort of schitty land for free, I have no objections whatsoever.
What set me on edge over tis whole issue is the heavy handed approach of the BLM, coming out with the excessive show of force, and bringing out the big bus size paddy wagon to deal with protestors. That was not only bad PR, but really pissed off the locals as well.
I really don't care what anyone else her thinks about Mr. Bundy and his actions. If the grazing land had NOT been converted into a Desert Tortoise Preserve, and his usage subsequently restricted, this never would have occurred. The facts just now coming to light about the Solar Green energy development is the REASON, even though Tortoises and Grazing Fees are simply the EXCUSE for this whole exercise in futility.
So...the BLM spends in excess of a million taxpayer dollars to collect and REMOVE THE CATTLE which were interfering with Rory Reid's deal with the Chinese. The manner in which this occurred is disgusting to me...a military veteran who is appalled by the action of "our" government.
So, to answer your question, Couch: no it doesn't bother me a bit for him to get "free" grazing on utterly worthless (other than to the Chinese) land. I personally wouldn't pay a dollar a year per head for what he's doing. That means I wouldn't pay $900 in order to graze 900 open range cows on that sort of pasture. If they think it's worth Millions, they're fulla' schittt.
Official "end of rant." Now let the mud slinging begin!
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
|
Nice picture Chief...bunch of old fat white guys with fat old white women on Harleys. The freaking guy in the front has about eight chins.
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
|
Chief wrote: And Five Bronze Stars.
Really...like you know him??
Maybe medals for winning a hot dog eating contest.
|
|
fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
|
I think the hot dog trophy is a belt
which is kind of ironic, should be a sweatpants string
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
|
ATB-
This isn't, and never has been about Desert Tortoises. Read some of the above information, where tortoises are being euthanized because there are too many of them and some are "sick." What a bunch of horse crap. Yes, I love turtles, but tortoises even more. The ranchers kill off the natural predators (coyotes and ravens) and the population of tortoises increase. I'm all for tortoises.
My previous interaction with the BLM was also in regard to an "endangered species." The Preble's Jumping Mouse. It was listed by "Biodiversity" as endangered, and without much hoo haw, it was approved for protection under the ESA. My ranch, as well as some mountain land we owned was identified by the USF & WS as prime habitat for this little mouse. After 3 years of looking, not a single Preble's Jumping Mouse was ever found in the State of Wyoming. During that time there were severe restriction on burning weeds in irrigation ditches and plowing fields too close to said ditches. The Boys at the BLM were supposed to be the "enforcers" even on deeded private lands. My ENTIRE RANCH is deeded acreage and no leased or government lands were ever involved. But I was subjected to scrutiny anyway. So my attitude to the BLM: Fukkem!
|
|
philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:19pm PT
|
**
On Kilter: Bundy won, America lost**
OPINION – Mark Twain famously said, “Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government when it deserves it.” Until today I had always been one to lean on the improbability that the government ever really deserves it. But when the government chose to back down to avert the bloodshed of innocent life, while Cliven Bundy shamelessly put innocent life in harms way for his own agenda, I knew to whom loyalty belonged.
As Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie announced the stand-down of the Bureau of Land Management’s round up of Bundy’s cattle from federal land, there was reported to be a collective sigh of relief. It was over.
The round up, which began last week, which was adjudicated by federal court order and was being carried out by the BLM as well as adjoining agencies and civilian contractors, drew supporters for Bundy ranging from sympathetic ranchers and citizens to armed militias who mingled throughout out the crowds in the area.
The spirit of de-escalation was however short lived
The spirit of de-escalation was however short lived.
Cliven Bundy came forth after Gillespie, spoke and betrayed the terms of the stand-down announcing a series of demands that included but are not limited to the disarming of federal agents, and the removal of gates to national parks. This is consistent with the statements made last Wednesday by his son Ryan Bundy on the Perspectives Show with Bryan Hyde and Kate Dalley.
Later, Bundy gave the order to the militia which led to a tense standoff in a wash with dozens of Las Vegas Metro Police. The militia took their stand surrounded by women and children also in protest and demanded that the cattle be released.
Deputy Chief Tom Roberts, of Las Vegas Metro, then made an agreement with Bundy’s son Ammon, to release the cattle held there within 30 minutes if the crowd agreed to disperse.
There was nothing peaceful about it
Advocates for Bundy are hailing this a victory for not only Bundy, but for America as a whole and inferring that this is in fact a demonstration of the power of peaceful rebellion. Of civil disobedience. Despite that, there was nothing peaceful about it.
In actuality, this has perhaps done something quite different.
This event has changed the collective definition of the meaning of civil disobedience in America for the worst
The stand-down gave a symbolic victory for radical anti-government militia groups, but more importantly, this event has changed the collective definition of the meaning of civil disobedience in America for the worst.
In an article in The Southwest Journal, a compelling case for the distinctions between criminal behavior for selfish gain and civil disobedience for the greater good of people is made.
The main thrust of such distinctions is that a true act of civil disobedience is marked by an emphasis by the disobedient acquiescing to the knowledge that they are breaking the law and accept the penalty for it in the interest of the common good.
Bundy does not think he has done a single thing wrong and furthermore, revealed his true character in the matter when in lieu of not getting his innocuous demands for a version of government take down and overthrow, he simply demanded people take back his cattle. Perhaps his sole motive all along despite alluding to some fashion of patriotism.
But beyond such distinctions another compelling case can be made for the media’s role in ratcheting up the fanaticism that ultimately was the cause of the breakdown of the agreement made between the BLM and Bundy as well as the decision to cease the roundup.
He appealed to the nature of mob rule and incited potential violence – even when peace had been brokered
Furthermore, Bundy himself is responsible for doing less for the cause of putting into check a presumed-overbearing federal government. Instead, he appealed to the nature of mob rule and incited potential violence – even when peace had been brokered.
In a 1968 article by Delbert D. Smith, the case for the deterioration of meaningful and effective civil disobedience as well as the media and general public’s culpability thereof, some 35 years later, still holds an almost prophetic weight. Smith writes:
One difficulty that the courts face with cases of civil disobedience is that the techniques are constantly changing because of the necessity of attracting public attention and notice. The ‘news’ content of the event and its adaptability to television or magazine coverage have become important criteria for determining the nature of civilly disobedient acts. It can be argued that the most undesirable forms of civil disobedience have developed as a result of the irresponsibility of our mass media.” However, the alternative course of action, which would be to prescribe some form of news management, seems equally undesirable. News suppression would not be viable in any event since the news media are able to ‘color’ an event simply by their use, non-use or placement of a particular article.
While it is possible to assert that the mass media manufacture pseudo-events by over-dramatizing incidents involving civil disobedience, and it may be that some racial problems have been accentuated because of uncritical and ‘sensational’ news coverage, it is also true that the frustration of nonviolent demonstrations by denying them press coverage may have the effect of precipitating violent demonstrations. The emotional effect of the newspaper, since it reports events that have occurred in the past in a formal manner that people have come to expect, is minimal compared to live television coverage which many times searches for the most dramatic (and possibly most unrepresentative) incidents that make for interesting visual imagery at the expense of balanced coverage. If obtaining publicity is one of the major inducements to acts of civil disobedience, and violent demonstrations receive more coverage than nonviolent ones, it is probable that the frequency of the latter form of demonstration will increase.
Further, the easy designation of every protest movement as an act of nonviolent civil disobedience by the mass media without any concern for particular factors such as the public nature of the act, its illegality, or its conscientious nature may lead to the creation of a false public impression of the permissible limits of civil disobedience and one that is at variance with that found in the courts. The community standards that result may create difficulties in law enforcement that would not result if these standards accurately reflected a more sophisticated concept of what constituted civil disobedience.
As each act of so-called civil disobedience witnessed on the mass media is struck down by the courts, people will begin to lose faith in the legitimacy of civil disobedience as a socially tolerable form of protest.
The Bundy Range War was perpetuated by an irresponsible media vying for nothing more than ratings
The Bundy Range War was perpetuated by an irresponsible media vying for nothing more than ratings and an ill-informed and willfully ignorant public who, much like a NASCAR fan, come to the race simply in hopes of seeing a crash.
The militia groups, at least some, may have had noble intentions of some sort in the spirit of constitutionally- laden principles, but ultimately appeared to be the disgruntled and disenfranchised fanatical fringe element looking not for a cause to fight for, but a fight to support and glorify their cause.
The Bundy plea for support in a situation where he had clearly no arguable case in law, was a perfect storm of sorts.
The BLM and adjoining agencies in this situation are to commended for their prudence and immense restraint
The BLM and adjoining agencies in this situation are to commended for their prudence and immense restraint shown in the face of outright lawlessness masked as patriotism.
At the standoff in the wash, the true colors of these people was shown when they used for strategical advantage, the presence of women and children while threatening an armed response to the law.
Cliven Bundy, likely a victim to nothing short of his own pride, is no hero
Cliven Bundy, likely a victim to nothing short of his own pride, is no hero. He is certainly no patriot. He used pseudo-American sentiment to quite successfully create an event in history that perhaps once and for all will change how American ranchers in the west are perceived.
The stand-down was necessary to prevent bloodshed, but it must be recognized that if Bundy and a multitude of his supporters, militia friends, and even family members who broke the law, are allowed to go unpunished, anarchy will follow. Other groups, emboldened by the appearance of forcing a stand-down, will only continue to gain momentum. And furthermore, law enforcement as a whole will be rendered impotent as average people with disputes with current laws begin to wonder if they too can call a militia in to force the police to leave them alone.
And as if to embolden the assertion of the fact, a case in Texas is surfacing that while the facts are just becoming revealed, cannot allow for a repeat of the war Bundy started here.
In the case of Bundy and the Gold Butte designations, the government did it right
In the case of Bundy and the Gold Butte designations, the government did it right. They continued to do it right in the face of the lawless behavior of a rancher and his militia henchmen. They earned and deserve our loyalty.
For those who were closest to this event, who were there, who witnessed it first hand, and for everyone afar who will be affected by it, it is of the utmost importance that you speak up in defiance to allowing this stand-down to be the end of this battle. Equal rights under law were attacked, and ultimately defamed by this rancher. We cannot let that stand.
See you out there.
–
Dallas Hyland is an opinion columnist. The opinions stated in this article are his and not representative of St. George News.
Related posts
Range War: BLM withdraws, cattle released after standoff
Range war: BLM, protesters clash, rancher’s son hit with stun gun
Congressmen urge BLM to keep seized cattle out of Utah
Range war: Rancher’s son arrested by BLM, later released; transport of impound cattle put on hold
Letter to the Editor: The spirit of the West; range war
Letter to the Editor: Bundy forfeited right to graze cattle; counter opinion, range war
Range war: BLM, Iron County to work together on feral horse issue – Iron County
Range war: County resolves to solve wild horse problem if BLM prioritizes Bundy cattle – Iron County
Range war: County Commissioners oppose BLM bringing Bundy cattle to Utah – Washington County
Range war: Rancher stands defiant as BLM moves to impound ‘trespass cattle’
Perspectives: The Bundys vs the bureaucracy
ON Kilter: Trespass cattleman not above the law
BLM, National Park Service close public lands due to trespassing cattle dispute
‘Where’s the line?’ Ivory’s crusade to return public lands to the states
Email: dhyland@stgnews.com
Twitter: @dallashyland
Copyright St. George News, StGeorgeUtah.com Inc., 2014, all rights reserved.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
|
YAWN! ^^^^^^^^^^
This yet one more MSM OPINION columns.
|
|
fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
|
And furthermore, law enforcement as a whole will be rendered impotent as average people with disputes with current laws begin to wonder if they too can call a militia in to force the police to leave them alone.
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that's not going to keep happening
|
|
philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
|
I blame this debacle on Obummer.
That pussy closet Socialist was so scared he crawled under his desk and shet his sef.
Now if our President were a real manly Amurican like Putin heeda rode in there all bare shirted and sweaty ridin' bare back on some stallion lookin' like the love child of Chuck Norris and Steven Segal. Heeda give all them dissidents the what fer. Heeda prolly single handedly rastle all them dawgies to the ground and rebrand em.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
|
|
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
|
Funny how Huff n Puff Chuff's article uses the Constitution in their argument to defend a man who doesn't believe in it. Except for his misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment.
Killem all Putin is watchin' from Sarah Palin's house.
Serve uppa big ol bowl a shredded beef with pussy giblits.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|